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IMPORTANT updates: HELP LAW, HELP WITNESS, HELP DEPUTY.
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_Clifton_
Emissary


Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 1432
Location: your and you're are not the same. they're, there, and their are not the same. learn to english.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:54 pm    Post subject:

Time to throw in my two seconds. When I had Grathin, I took the stance that crimes were bound to happen, and the people the commit the crimes were going to do it sooner or later (hence: blanket of darkness got fucked). So therefore, it never bothered me to dare people to do what they would do if it were another situation. Once, when I was fighting Dolgin, I was wounded to about the deathblow. Him being a Knight wannabe, I called him out for not finishing the assault as I knew he would do in the future when he were pinnacled. On some grounds, yes, you're promoting an attack, but on the other hand you're accepting that people will fuck you. And at least, being an evil justice, you get retribution and then go "oooh you're items are so shiny. me like, me like." So the stance I would take for a Justice buying a contract and threatening people with a contract is one of those, "well, I want you dead, so you're gonna die. Doesn't matter to me how it happens. If it happens in town, I'm gonna save you, but you'll eventually die anyway."

... my thoughts at 7:50, ignore me.
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Louis



Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 825
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:12 pm    Post subject:

yea kalist, i personally as an evil justice would not purchase contracts for that reason. however i would attack outside of town. i would never ask people to commit crimes like (are you gona attack me? then do it..). its a fine line but i think evil justices should always maintain the front that they support the law and that goes for causing flags that create crime. this equates to justices not being able to raid cabals/steal items, because say they are deathmarked/anathemad/contracted and are sitting in town.. what's anyone gona do about it?
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Burzuk
Implementor


Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 530

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:41 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
the justice's rp is possibly to be an evil bastard who brags and gloats and appears to be working above/outside the law when he is actually breaking no rules (ie: not charging people for protection in town, not taking bribes, not letting crimminals go, etc).


Would you permit a Warlord to "pretend" to be above/outside the Warlord code by stockpiling potions, faking emotes to quaff them, bragging about imaginary gangbangs, and so on? Why would you want to condone something similar for Justices?

To make matter worse, not all players know what Justices are/aren't allowed to do, and a member that appears to flaunt Justice guidelines only exacerbates the confusion. Do you really believe that causing problems for your fellow cabal members and your cabal as a whole justifies your character's personal "RP"? If I were the Justice Imm, I'd uninduct you the moment you became a liability to the cabal, "RP" or not.

Like I said, I don't see the possibility of corrupt Justices as an "evil" or an "RP" issue, I see this as a very fundamental cabal conduct issue.

As a footnote, IMO a corrupt Justice is pretty shoddy RP for a lawful evil to begin with. It's neutral evils who work primary by deception; lawful evils can't afford to have their word be discredited, or else they lose whatever leverage they had to use for manipulating existing legal systems. Not only would corrupt Justices not stay Justices very long -- chances are good they won't even stay lawful very long if I were watching them, with all the attendant punishments that come with an ethos change. Not for lying (like lawyers, lawful evils can lie all they want so long as they can get away with it), but for failing to work within the system as their ethos dictates (the same way lawyers can be disbarred if they get caught subverting the legal system).

Quote:
According to the high up Immortal, if a justice even 'looks' like he is doing anything that could be regarded as corrupt it is grounds for immediate dismissal (Note that the justice has broken no cabal rules or guidelines).


Read help 'section 3' in the Justice guidelines, entitled "Integrity". Not a new addition, either -- think it was added back around Sasarai's time.

I should also point out: Justices guidelines are a reference, and like almost all references it cannot be 100% exhaustive. For example, my "liability to the cabal" example above isn't covered in the guidelines, but if an Imm uninducts on that basis I'd support them completely.

Quote:
Now a justice telling a person they will contract them could be seen as corrupt (it is a stretch, but apparently even a stretch is grounds for dismissal).


There's a saying, throw enough defense lawyers at any case and they can argue for enough reasonable doubt to dissuade a jury about the very existence of the sun. I happen to think that the arguments against corrupt Justices are somewhat less tenuous than that.

Quote:
I presume it is well known that justice and legion do not like eachother.


Pure conjecture. Don't forget that Etso and Jutazz helped Legions raid Knights when Knights were strong, for example. We purposely set up the Knight-Justice-Legion conflict so that all three have reasons to both help and hinder each other -- this was a major reason for the prohibition of good-aligns from Justice, the new cabal flags for Knights/Legions, being targetted by enemy cabals for capturing an item, and so on. All three cabals have causes for conflict and commonalities for temporary alliances. For example, a Justice that was both contracted and anathema'd would cause him to be gangbanged by both Knights and Legions simultaneously, assuming there are no other conflicting anathemas/contracts.

I would agree if you limited your statement to the situation right now, but that's more of a temporary effect of the power vaccuum in Knights.

Quote:
Now let's say a justice contracts Joe and there are 5 legions on. [...] The justice just indirectly provoked an attack within town. It's not hard to see how that could be seen as corruption, since the last thing a justice should EVER want is an attack in town. I admit it is a stretch, but if Joe fervently complains to the Immortals and if it happens on more than one occasion (ie: have more than 1 person complain to the Immortals) I am willing to bet that the justice would be booted, if not worse.


By that same logic, Knights are sworn to eradicate evil, and the very existence of evil Justices means any evil Justice who sits in town is provoking an attack in town, and since Justices need to be in town to perform their duties, all evil Justices should therefore be uninducted on the principle you've proposed. And yet we allow them. Why? Because your saying that your hypothetical is "a stretch" is a more-than-mild understatement.

Also, you seem to think that the effectiveness of a complaint is amplified by repetition and decibels, rather than, oh I don't know, evidence and logic. Considering what you've seen of my methods (to speak nothing of Eldorian's), I'm surprised that you'd jump -- nay, take a flying leap -- to that conclusion. I've already banned one player before for making frivolous accusations, and I'm perfectly willing to do it again. I don't appreciate players going purposely out of their way to waste my time, not at all.

Quote:
I guess I'm just trying to point out that Justice have a very strict rp core.


I would argue the opposite: in fact, Justice is the only cabal that allows two alignments (neutral and evil -- Herald is not a cabal), making it more diverse than Knight, Warlord, or Legion. Also, the motivations behind a Justice's RP backstory vary considerably more than other cabals, as do their actual RP behavior. For example, take two current Justices, Grimp and Grunky -- identical in align, ethos, race, class, and cabal affliation, but a much wider difference in RP compared to any two paladins you'd find in Knights, or any two warriors in Warlord, etc. Personally, I see the least amount of "stereotypical" or "canned" RP in Justice of all the cabals. How many parents-killed-by-criminals applications do you see for Justice compared to the repetitive parents-killed-by-evil-d00ds applications for Knights?

Quote:
They can deviate from that, in being mean to people, or in being indifferent or nice but if they are going for 'mean' they had better watch their step


See my extensive earlier post about the difference between mean/evil and corrupt. Also, I've already made it clear that corruption for Justice is a major cabal-wide issue, rather than merely a personal RP issue.

Quote:
because one 'percieved' mistake can cost them dearly.


This I would agree with completely -- for all Justices, not merely pretending-to-be-corrupt ones. It's one reason why Justice is such a hard cabal, and why good Justices are worth their weight in gold.
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Remmenon



Joined: 10 Oct 2005
Posts: 110
Location: Edmonton AB Canada

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:09 am    Post subject: Heh

Heh, I can see both sides of the table. Heh, hard reading through yours though Burzuk... almost turned into

Quote:
Wall of text


Heh. Just had to put that. Anyways good points all around. But seriously I think it's about time Justice could deputize people, and lawful people could give witness statments. It's been long overdue. It always pissed me off when there'd be lawful people around, you would complain to a justice member who wasn't around, and even though you'd have witnesses, still wouldn't matter. Plus yah, with the eq changes who the hell would wanna roleplay a lawful person anyhow... kinda lame. But me, I think i'm always going to be chaotic cause you can kill people, backstab friends or whatever for funzies just when you feel like it.
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