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Bard RP requirement

 
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outbreak111



Joined: 08 Sep 2011
Posts: 24
Location: San Antonio

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:05 pm    Post subject: Bard RP requirement

Being a bard does not mean that you would not harm other people, and I feel that placing an RP requirement on a class (other than its alignment and ethos) is too much. I should not be required to RP my character the way you want me to, because YOU think that is how it should be played. Perhaps my bard is more akin to a thief and I use my talents of song and voice to distract and befuddle while I go in for the grab. and if that is my character you are darn right I am going to kill anyone who catches me, I would not want my reputation sullied by an open mouth.

My basic point is that you should not require anyone to RP a certain way, it is their character and their role to play, not yours, if you want to RP a happy go lucky never gonna kill people just maim them horribly bard, that is your role to play, but to place RP requirements on a class, is basically saying that your allowed to play my game, but only if you play it exactly like I do.

It should be left up to the citizens of Thera to shun a bard that they believe acts unbecoming, bards can be chaotic after all...

Besides you are braking the 4th wall by separating a PC from NPC's throughout Thera, how can it be O.K. for the bard to harm, maim, and kill NPC Therans, yet they are not allowed to kill PC Therans, when to said bard there should be no difference between the two of them.

Thats my two cents anyway, and having an RP requirement on a class definitely makes that class one that I will not role, if a neutral chaotic thief can kill Therans then, a neutral chaotic bard should also be able to kill Therans as you could play those two classes almost identically as far as RP is concerned.
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Ceridwel
Immortal


Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 2925
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:40 pm    Post subject:

Bards are too imbalanced to be agressive PKers. Look at the list of powers they get via their songs. In the hands of a skilled PKer, an agressive Bard would be unstoppable.
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Vevier
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1193
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:06 am    Post subject:

Iolo is exactly right. The RP restriction on bards is their balance for the rest of the game.

As for the restriction, it doesn't say bards should not kill people. Its that bards should not be blood thirsty IE initiate combat. If you want to play a character that sings to distract someone, roll up a thief and esay singing.

Stating that a class has certain restrictions is not trying to control you into playing 'our' game 'our' way. It is a limitation inherent in the world. You'll notice that our elves are also tall and willowy as compared to santa's short and stout gnomish elves.

As for the NPC comment, show me a bard in Thera that will auto aggro against you. PC bards can defend themselves even to the kill if they want, but they cannot initiate, just like the rest of the PCs. There is even a bard in game that tricks people when you interact with him, and then most people end up attacking him cause they are pissed at the trick. If you RPed this as a bard, you'd be within your rights and the guidelines we set out even if you killed the person who you goaded into attacking you (providing your taunts were within the roleplaying restriction as well.)

Bards aren't the only ones who have a roleplaying restriction. Goods also have a role playing restriction, and if they tried to play a "Good people help everyone because even evil people can have good sides" to justify getting items for evils, they would be outcasted and have their abilities taken from them.

A quote from Chaotic Neutral "they are watched closely by the Dark Gods, for should their whims grow cruel or their professions grow overly bloodthirsty, their hearts will be turned to evil." Being evil goes against all that bards stand for, which is being historians, jesters and story tellers.

Conclusion: Either play every character that you roll within the boundaries set by the Immortal staff, or expect retribution, which may be as minor as making your character hard to play or as severe as banishment.
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divsky
Emissary


Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 1059
Location: Iowa City, IA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:34 am    Post subject:

Bards exist for a couple of reasons. One is to help encourage RP outside of just PKs. The other is to give new players, or players that dislike heavy PKing, a class to play that lets them explore and level up without being a constant target for PKs. They do both of those jobs well, they have lots of skills that exist mainly for RP reasons (serenade, water to wine, wedding song), they're got a strong focus on supporting groups so they're always wanted for a third, and, since often people who play bards aren't the strongest PKers, they're given a pretty strong arsenal to work with if they need to.

Here's the problem with bards being aggressive PKers. The first has already been mentioned, it's just not balanced. The second is that if bards are accepted as aggressive PKers, than other players are going to aggressively PK them. Which defeats one of their purposes. If people are attacking bards all the time then they won't be a safe class for people who just like to RP. And finally, I just think the class isn't set up for it at all. Look at the bards skills, and look at the skills of other classes. Other classes have a very focused set of skills that promote a single type of play dynamic, and that makes every class a unique play experience. Bards don't really have that, they're sort of just a broad smattering of everything.

Point is, if you want to play an aggressive PK class, there's a total of 12 other classes for that. There's just one class that's designed to be a non-combatant, and that's the bard. If people don't get that concept, then the imms might as well take the bard class out of that game. (which I hope they never do)
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Pops



Joined: 02 Oct 2008
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:52 am    Post subject:

All that being said, its nice to see someone around thats new enough to actually complain about bard RP restrictions. Frankly, bard is a great class to get started on, as anything else will probably result in repetitive steam rolling by veteran players. If you ever feel the need to get in a fight, some RP appropriate insults will do the trick nicely. almost anyone who fights will probably be willing to fight you, as long as you give them a reason (most folks assume bards DONT want to fight, and respect the decision). After you get two rounded a couple times by angered LEGION members, you can buy protection and perhaps use your newly appreciated special RP status to learn the game in relative comfort and safety.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 8562
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:26 pm    Post subject:

To be honest I agree with original poster.. however the bards *as they are now* should not be aggressive. They're neutral. Neutrals kill out of vengeance which is allowed for bards because it is allowed for neutral. that little extra bit in the bard helpfile is not exclusive to them..its something all neutrals should do. But you have to wonder why Stryth would keep them to just neutrals. Seems like an evil bard in suitable joker-like attire could run around singing devils dance and panhandling , annoying the s hit out of everyone. Its what he wanted, but it seems to have shut off an avenue for fun.
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outbreak111



Joined: 08 Sep 2011
Posts: 24
Location: San Antonio

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:57 pm    Post subject:

Well if they are so imbalanced why are they still in the game? Were not monks simply removed from the game for the time being due to being imbalanced? I have not played AR in prob about 5 years, and when I logged in yesterday morning to find out I could not roll a monk my heart broke, it really did. Heck I started playing this game around 1999-2000 when about 10-15 people in my high school played all the time. I sucked at it, I still prob suck at it, but boy was it fun to team up with your buddies and just go kill some crap, and monks being so incredibly bad ass just offset how crappy I was as a player (I don't like to PK but am more than happy to serve as someone elses punching bag)

I will admit I have not really looked in to the bards, I considered rolling one yesterday but when I saw the RP note on the bottom of the help file I immediately lost interest, all I could think was about how I was gonna get destroyed but some fire giant berserker and would be forced to sing him a pretty song the next time I saw him rather than exacting my exquisitely crafted malevolent revenge. (more than likely an attempt to kick dirt and then an hour and a half of running around getting lost on the ramparts (I can't do a circuit anymore this makes me sad Sad)

If bards are going to be revamped from what they currently are then I am fine with the RP note holding due to imbalances in game play (a bandaid of sorts, like the monks not being able to join cabals) But if they are to remain the same and still have that awesome power then I personally feel the RP note should be removed, and when bards go apeshit and start destroying every one then shouldnt the keepers get off their butts and do their jobs, hunt the troubadour down and steal his crap! I dont know it just seems that the game is too cutthroat for any kind of team playing at any level above about 10 to the point where good RP is nigh impossible due to the fear induced urine leaking into your pants every time someone near your level is around. Back in the day there was next to no RP, if you were not evil and someone else was they showed up and killed you without saying a word, if you were evil and there was a good aligned on they would do the same thing, regardless of the fact that other than self righteous a-holes most "good" people would try to assume that there was a glimmer of hope for an evil character to change his ways and would try to cultivate the good rather than out and out killing them. It seems like there is no ambiguity in alignments, if your good, your good, and if your evil, you are evil, there is no way to change it in the mechanics of the game so people bring that into the way they RP their characters and it becoms a brawl of good vs evil rather than a battle waged in grey scale.

It seems to me that the opportunities you are afforded for roleplay are few and far between. I mean look at the state of the world today, religions squaring off against each other, with heads of religions turning their eye to misdeeds performed in the name of their religion because even though they are "good" they see the need for the morally ambiguous (chaotic, and evil people) in their war of the faith. I am in o way saying they condone the actions of those people, but they do not hunt them down and mercilessly slay them, they "use" them for their own ends. Good v Evil was never so black and white, even the Spanish inquisition which was founded on the premise of good vs evil was anything but black and white.

Basically Good and Evil are generic terms that we place on other people using our own personal sets of guidelines. You have people that commit heinous acts in the name of their god that many people will consider evil (not just terrorists but lets say christian men who tortured people during the Spanish inquisition. by today's standards they would be thoroughly branded as Evil yet at the time they were hailed as champions of god and doers of good deeds.)Yet those people are considered heroes and martyrs for great causes. My point is that the definitions of Good and Evil are ambiguous so, shouldnt my ability to play those roles be ambiguous as well? It should not be that my role is defined by whether I am good or evil but that the way I play my role should endear me to people as a good or an evil person by their definition. It just seems like the sides of the fight should be chosen by your actions and choices you make rather than whether you are "good" or "evil".

I apologize, I realize I prob just rambled for a long time and most of it prob wont make sense if it does feel free to just ignore the hell out of it, it was more an action of working through my own feelings on the matter by writing them down.
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Ceridwel
Immortal


Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 2925
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:23 pm    Post subject:

Great to see you passionate about this topic and the game in general, we need more players like you to come back! Incidentally, I don't think there's anything stopping you from exacting your revenge and going apeshit on someone who attacked you first...it's just that you're not supposed to be the initiator of the conflict in terms of attacking first. But if said berserker attacks you, then its open season on him for you to sing his ass into oblivion until he's paid his dues...which could take days or weeks of irl time depending on how you RP it and how many kills you make on him. Point being, a bard (and neutrals in general) isn't going to just kill someone aggressively for no reason. RP it correctly and you'll be able to have your cake and eat it too.
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outbreak111



Joined: 08 Sep 2011
Posts: 24
Location: San Antonio

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:53 pm    Post subject:

[img] http://scienceblogs.com/retrospectacle/all%20my%20base%20cake.bmp [/img]
I like cake

but apparently I'm not feeling the love from the img tags Sad
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divsky
Emissary


Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 1059
Location: Iowa City, IA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:16 pm    Post subject:

I was just thinking.. if you really did want to be an aggressive, PKing bard and still stay in RP, there's a very easy way to do that: Panhandle.

Just panhandle as much as you can. It's going to piss people off and provoke them to attack you, and once that happens everything you do to them is justified. And if you panhandle enough gold off of someone, they will attack you.

*shrug*

You just have to be a slightly creative with how you play your character, and you can't just be straight-up bloodthirsty and aggressive. I don't feel like that's such a big deal.
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