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Lawful Dark-Knights

 
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:40 am    Post subject: Lawful Dark-Knights

So, since the devil/demon pact, lawful dark-knight have not really been a thing in higher levels from what I've seen. From what I have played, they have a terrible mana regeneration and they seem to be more spell heavy with out having unholy strength to give them that little bit of mana on attacks. Could it be possible to give them trance? or some other means to regenerate mana?

Also, the dark knight lvl 20 guild master quest still tries to give a lawful dark knight unholy strength, they can cast it after doing the quest, but its lost upon logging out.
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:14 am    Post subject:

It's been pointed out before, Andrael, that giving them trance would be OP.
So to re-iterate, let's point out the positives and negatives, and maybe someone has a better suggestion than trance.

Clear positives: Gain buckler, spellstrike, can cast from horseback without penalty.

Clear negatives: Lose unholy strength and bash.

I'm kind of with you on the benefits not outweighing the losses here. Buckler does add some defense. Spellstrike is random, but useful. Being able to cast from horseback is better if you can invest heavily in HP gear, which as a DK, you really can't. So what exactly makes this choice more caster-like? (Which was clearly the intention, per Nycticora)

The loss of unholy strength is huge against paladins and healers, and the fact that it also helps mana recovery makes it an even bigger loss. Losing bash is kind of a big deal too.

Enfeeblement strikes me as the oddest choice here as a lawful skill, and should likely be replaced with something else. Multiple races can fly, everyone can misty pot, warriors get increased move regen, slippers give move regen. I don't feel like it adds any value.

That's just my two cents.
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Kedaleam
Immortal


Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject:

I've seen their spellstrike hit so nicely so I can't say much. Like really, really nicely. I'd actually love for someone to go lawful DK and full expand on this instead of thoughts on the pre-50 things. Also, make a Justice. Thanks.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject:

Enfeeblement decreases ac by 100 as well doesn't it? That's no joke.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject:

This is the first time any player has ever discussed the lawful dark knight or any of the skills they have on the forum.
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:56 pm    Post subject:

if they cast plague first, it normally grounds you if you're a race that flies naturally, ie avians, quaists, etc. I don't know about magical flight. The issue with spellstrike isn't that it doesn't hit hard, it eats a massive, and I mean like between 15-20ish% percent when I was trying to train the skill around lvl 25-30ish. Its like sidestepping or reckoning. And since it is used as an initiation, have to choose between charging for a stun or spellstriking for a random spell and some deeps.
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:30 pm    Post subject:

Actually, the update thread where these skills were introduced has some discussion about them.

If enfeeblement does -100 AC, Ergorian is right. That's no joke. Still...spamming move draining spells doesn't seem like a great tactic unless it's a lot more powerful than I initially assumed. Figured it would be like a necro or DK spamming crappy energy drains instead of something useful like fireballs or better mals.

One of the things I DO want to point out is:

HP gear doesn't come in HEAVY anymore as rares, aside from Vlad's cuirass and white elder dragon plate. You'd have to gamble it all, which means you can't engrave it into sets. So going the HP/AC route with unholy armor isn't that feasible of a tactic. And in that previous thread, that was suggested as one of the choices this change was supposed to open up.
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:16 am    Post subject:

I don't think that's enfeeblement. Enfeeblement just eats up extra movement when you move and has a chance to make ya fall down when you flee. Deteriorate does -100 ac and saves and is sham only.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:17 am    Post subject:

Oh yeah. I was thinking of deteriorate.
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:29 am    Post subject:

Actually, after going back and reading some old threads, I retract my previous statement. Energy drain looks better than I thought it was (my experience with it was OLD). So with enfeeblement, it's probably a nasty combo that would steamroll certain classes. *Cough* rogues.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:11 am    Post subject:

I took a look at the move cost of Spellstrike, and it looks like it was not correct. I don't remember making that formula, either I fucked it up or someone modified it without realizing the impact. It looks like the mv cost was around 38 per spellstrike, which may be very high.

I've reduced the move cost of Spellstrike to a flat cost of 20 for now. This should be a little too low of a cost, the sweet spot should be between 20 and 35. The flat cost should be fine because mv total and mv regeneration scales strongly with level, so this shouldn't require a cost that starts high and decreases to be balanced at low levels. If this is too low, and more mv cost is not fun, let's consider putting an HP cost on it instead of a mana cost since lawful DKs have mana problems.

I'll observe the result, please also share feedback.

note the mv cost of spellstrike should be replacing the mana cost of the channeled spell
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:17 am    Post subject:

I looked at it again and I think I see what happened - I put the cost of the spell Spellstrike casts into the formula. So if Spellstrike casts Blindness, it added +15 mv cost and if it cast Silence it added +35 mv cost. This was definitely me.

If the flat cost is no good we can try removing the flat cost entirely and making Spellstrike cost the ramdomly-chosen spell's casting cost, except in mv instead of mana.
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