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[2018 Q4] Monk debuf
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Faelon
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:20 pm    Post subject:

+1 what Ergorion said.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:05 am    Post subject:

I think the idea of using a skill and finding it fucks you over is terrible.

Missing bash, missing dirt and getting lagged feels terrible. The newer change to dirt, where you can't dirt somebody but it lets you try and fail feels terrible. The paladin wrath spell doing a graze of damage on a low hp target feels terrible. Even casting sanc while already sanced and wasting mana (renewable resource) feels pretty bad. These are light slaps on the risk compared to falling on your ass completely.

Skills are tools, and when they are useless or unreliable it is a shitty experience. So I have not made too many skills where those sort of things come up. That goes against the design philosophy I have for AR which is "skills feel useful, and reliable". AR has elements of strong sadomachism so we could obviously do that and remain in game theme, but it doesnt belong in a non-toxic gaming environment. I would much rather we think up ways to introduce counter-play, .e.g. crane style is a BIG size (it is, btw) so we can have skills that capitalize on this
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Faelon
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:39 pm    Post subject:

It could be exactly like trying to sideswipe someone who is in dual wield style. Useless with a light tap on the wrist.
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Ergorion



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:54 pm    Post subject:

"I think the idea of using a skill and finding it fucks you over is terrible."

The thief weapon skills backfiring did not have a feeling of: oh this game sucks because my skill backfired. It had the feeling of: damn, my opponent was faster on the draw than I was and outsmarted me.

The rock/paper/scissors mechanism favors brains over brawn. The beauty of AR has been that skills are situational. Correctly using your skills brings with it a satisfaction that you will lose if there is no penalty for incorrectly using them.

If there is no penalty for misusing a skill, then there is no incentive to use anything but the most powerful skill you have. Misusing a skill and suffering a consequence is a teaching tool that makes players better faster.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject:

Well that rock paper scissors stuff sounded nice when it first came out, but I bet in 2018 we would see some thief getting rolled up if we try tying weapon advantage skills to dirt kick advantage. I dont see why you couldnt have a weapon advantage if the other person literally cannot see your weapons, even with blind fighting. Also, that seems fair to me because a dirt kicked thief cannot even use his skills (unlike warriors). Brains over brawn means technique over strength, right? And this game balance thing requires a bit of fairness, right?
I think that includes kicking dirts and using weapon skills (technique) instead of just trying to muscle (bash and damroll), do you agree?

What is the goal anyways? Do we want to see more people playing thieves? Do we want someone to notice a thief logged in and begin shaking in their boots, because that is an actual pk'ing class and bad mother fucker who can kick in their teeth? Or is it increase the difficulty level for other classes to the point people finally just resign and pick thieves because theyre easier (if anyone still wants to play afterward). This is a 100% serious question. Because if you give me two classes that are even on skills I will pick the one with the greater hp/level every single time. Since thieves are down on hp, seems like they'd need a solid advantage somewhere else, and NOT get dicked over by their own skills. Helps level things out. As it is, they arent even going tit for tat with it. If youre asking me to take damage every time I use a skill badly (which could easily be because someone jammy switched weapons right as you typed it in) then I'd expect a free hit every time you fuck one up. Soemthing like that increases the difficulty a lot for other classes vs thieves, at least, but it doesnt make thieves any stronger since you have to suicide yourself on them.
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Ergorion



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:07 pm    Post subject:

I think the "bonus" to thieves is that they can blackjack you and steal all your weapons leaving you with the one that gives them the best skills, and have a super nuke damage skill in dual backstab. The problem is, this bonus is never fully realized because (a) blackjack fails so often and (b) no halfway intelligent blackjack victim will stick around if a thief shows he will not fight until he has stolen everything worth stealing. (c) unless you one-round someone after a super-nuke backstab, they are just going to start running immediately. It's kind of like how the "bonus" of necromancers is that they can run around with a l33t army of 3 innkeepers/rins, but that is never realized because it takes 3 hours and people will just quit out on them.

I do think being able to use any weapon skill while your opponent is blind would be a good thief buff because they get boned and can't use their weapon skills while blinded. Seems to have a nice symmetry.

The reason I think monk kick should be tied to weapon/combat style is because monks are kung fu masters and kicking is an aspect of kung fu. The only reason kicks would have different effects (barrage, mantis hop, etc) is if the physical mechanics of the kick differed while in different stances. This physical variation is directly tied to the "combat style" of the stance. Thus, it is fitting that their kicks would act as weapon skills.

This discussion has ballooned a bit from a monk specific kick question to include a number of other valid concerns that probably deserve their own threads. (1) thieves in general; (2) skills and their ties to the combat modules; (3) the combat modules
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject:

Its fine its because I made monk literally as skill heavy as I wanted thief to be and we're still seeing guys asking for more detail. Whereas with berserker it seems to be wanted even simpler, even though they have way more hp and the least skills of any class. Gotta pay attention to that stuff
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:18 pm    Post subject:

yeah it's an interesting dichotomy, the incoming requests for monks and berserkers are totally polar opposites

also the majority of requests for the "quick, one-line fixes" we've gotten for this quarter are requests to spend 6+ months on huge balance changes. We should probably ignore them completely from here on and start implementing the quick fixes. I've already gotten the best requests like nodefense and reducing the allowed time before move guild banners. Can you do moving dragon ancestry on berserkers from 35 to 25? I'll scour the list and make a list of accepted change requests. Allowing self-induct into religions would be nice if we can do it in a way that doesn't involve 20 mobprogs like cabal autoinduct, but that solution sounds like too much work for this patch.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:09 pm    Post subject:

Are you annoyed at me about something? Because I havent decided if I want to do anything in that thread yet, including lower the berserker skill from 35 to 25. I happen to think its a horrible idea
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Nycticora



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:22 am    Post subject:

I'm not annoyed I'm just trying to counter signal large balance changes, it's fine
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:46 am    Post subject:

got it
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Flyndance



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:42 am    Post subject:

I just feel like I need to back thorgoth up here.

I agree with Faelon that the other offensive styles are shit compared to leopard and crane. However, maybe instead of saying that the other styles are useless, you can say that leopard and crane are simply "too good to be true". I only really have an issue with crane because crane style provides iron body, chance to dodge arrows (when dual wield style is not meant to be arrow dodgeable) and gives a whopping 25hit at the expense of 5dam. Why else would anyone even use any other stance aside from crane? Crane had been the default stance to use and leopard is only useful in PVE or if the opponent is stupid enough to go two handed against a monk.

I can totally understand thorgoth's frustration in a warrior vs monk situation because there is only one way to play it which is to dual wield 2 magical weapons (first hand has got to be a magical mace, anything else like a magical flail is suicide) and slug it out with the monk in crane while trying to down the monk before the heals become too productive (which leads to the topic of OP healing of monks). Is this how this fight should be? Just a slugfest? Btw, an elf warrior can never win a monk because the low strength makes it almost impossible to get past the enhanced parry of monks in defensive.

My opinion is that it depends on whether the intention is to retain the combat style mechanics such that melee combat revolves around switching styles for real tangible advantage. If yes, I would suggest nerfing crane in the hitroll department to make it less lucrative to default to crane all the time. The other styles are okay in the current state because two handed styles have always been risky choices with weaker defences, just as most warriors would not go two handed without first calculating the risk of losing one defence for the sake of bigger damage.

Not sure how the rework for healing had been, but being able to spam scan or where to check for an approaching opponent while concentrating to charge up a heal should not be possible imo. This will help to balance out the high effectiveness of healing by forcing the monk to commit to the heal somehow, such that the monk will not have the means to know if the heal will be interrupted during channelling. Or some kind of half round lag if the monk wishes to break out of channelling to run away from an approaching opponent.
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Faelon
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:49 am    Post subject:

If you want to nerf monks, remove crane kick in anything but superiority. Leave the hitroll. Monks don't win those fights because of superior hitroll, they win it because of crane kick. Monk fights are just crane kick fests of boredom.

As to your other assertion, about crane just being too good to be true, I considered that. However, if you try to use a two handed style against a dual wielding warrior/hybrid, you're dead. If you use offensive styles against anyone, you're dead, because your defenses are weakened severely.

I've played with every style combination, on previous iterations of monks I've played, trying to find a way to use offensive styles to get an advantage on opponents. I tried slow, I tried stacking hitroll and going into tiger and conversely, stacking damroll and going tiger (a major fail, but I needed to know). I have even tried building a pure hp/ac monk. Doing anything but assuming crane style in virtually every situation, is a good way to die. The exceptions are leopard style for illusionists and necromancers with full pets.
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Flyndance



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:18 am    Post subject:

Oh but Faelon, you are just looking at a monk vs monk matchup with regards to removing crane kick. On contrary, I think crane kick is essential because it works like barrage and fits with the dual wield style of crane stance against a shield wearing opponent. Certainly, crane kick fest between monks is boring and probably unintended but that is the only possible way to play this matchup in the current state.

Why would I recommend nerfing hitroll? Because it affects directly the core mechanics of this game in how damage is calculated. A crane stance with 30 hitroll vs a crane stance with 55 hitroll makes a hell lot of difference in terms of how easily a monk's constant 3 strikes per round get through to the opponent. And in contrast to your statement, this is exactly why crane wins fights imo. To put it in another perspective, if monks are to get +25 hitroll when in panda stance instead, I am pretty sure panda will become the new crane (mark me).

I certainly agree with you that using a two-handed stance against a dual wielding warrior almost guarantees defeat because the monk will not be able to deal sufficient damage in two handed stance against a dual wielding warrior simply because there is no 25 hitroll boost in any of the two handed stance available to the monk. But isn't it the same for a warrior if he uses a two handed weapon against another dual wielding warrior? I for one will definitely not go into two handed stance whether I am a monk or warrior simply because the trade-off of losing one defence for the chance to deal higher damage (also subjective to how many attacks were executed per round) is not worth it.
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Faelon
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:51 pm    Post subject:

I will always go into a superior style advantage in a warrior v warrior battle. Concentration and riposte contribute so much, and the superior style lends itself to the ability to enhanced disarm and other abilities.

Monks don't have any advantage if they get combat style advantage against any hybrid/warrior class.

And my statements had to do with both monk v monk interactions and hybrid/warrior v monk interactions. Monk v monk, it's crane style/kick. Interestingly, in other match ups if the hybrid/warrior goes dual wield only, your only recourse is crane style. If the warrior is foolish enough to go into two handed style, then it's leopard and dirt kicking. But they really shouldn't do that, as I mentioned in this thread previously.

I agree that crane style is the winning style, but not for the same reason. I think disabling crane kick in an inferior/even style is a substantial enough nerf. Honestly, if you are in crane style you may be flying and also have a significantly hindered ability to kick dirt. The hitroll simply balances that out. The problem is, there is no downfall to using it in an inferior/even situation.

That does not negate that ever style outside of leopard is kid useless in a straight up fight.
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Flyndance



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:30 pm    Post subject:

Suffice to say, I will choose the 25 hitroll over the ability to dirt kick any day.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:08 pm    Post subject:

i like what i did with tiger. i would like to do the same with crane and have the jacked bonuses apply just for grandmasters
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