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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 3 hours.

Parry for Monks
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Olyn
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:02 am    Post subject:

Mr. Forgotten, I think the "monk" role with staff that you're referring to actually falls under the shadow class, who are also martial arts experts. Giving monks a second defense while using a weapon would be bad for obvious reasons.
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Mr. Forgotten



Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 539

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:50 am    Post subject:

So you think the fact that Monks using a staff for defense, even though commonly known and agreed upon lore for them states that they use them for self-defense, is wrong? I disagree that it would be bad...Monks in this game don't learn how to attack multiple times with a weapon, so their damage output is, if anything, decreased, also, since they dont know how to parry, their defensive power is decreased as well.. Any fighter class has at least two defenses at all times. As it is right now, monks that wield weapons only know how to dodge, thats on top of not being able to build up chii of any kind. That puts them at a disadvantage. I just got done testing out the Yin two-handed style against a certain ranger (please don't out me), and he whooped my ass, hard. Even though my character has mastered defenses and has ''divinely armored'' armor class, that's 315+. Panda style didn't do shit against his dual-wielding, like it was supposed to. Leopard style was inferior and crane/drunken style get raped because of his quick draw ability. Now, I'm not saying this just because I got my ass beat, I'm saying this because there's obviously a deficiency in defensive power when it comes to two-handed fighting style for monks. They lack in staying power AND offensive power when it comes to fighting against dual-wielders.

Last edited by Mr. Forgotten on Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Olyn
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:54 am    Post subject:

tl;dr

I'm confused. Why are you wielding weapons with a monk?
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Mr. Forgotten



Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 539

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:01 am    Post subject:

So you're not gonna read my post because you're lazy? I think i deserve more respect than that. Especially as a veteran player. I think the last thing the staff here wants to be doing is disrespecting its community by disregarding the shit they have to say. I brought this up because it's a genuine concern of mine. Monks have INCREDIBLY shitty two-handed options.
They lack damage output AND mitigation when it comes to using the two-handed styles. Monks not having the ability to parry with a weapon they are WIDELY known for using is completely ridiculous.
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Mr. Forgotten



Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 539

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:07 am    Post subject:

I love this game, but if I'm going to be disrespected over something I find disconcerting, instead of having shit explained to me, I'm done. I'll just spend my time elsewhere and you can have fun playing your dying game.
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Baer



Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 618
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:14 am    Post subject:

They are widely known for using staves and other martial weapons in the real world, and indeed even some other fantasy settings. However, and I mean no disrespect here, AR is neither the real world, nor those other settings.

The coders here decided, in line with how monks were during the way-back, to maintain the integrity of the class as Hand-to-Hand masters, a niche otherwise not filled in the game. Giving monks, who by and large should stick with their mitts, an option to ignore the stance-dance superiority mechanic would invalidate all the hard work Dav and the others did in bringing the class up to snuff with all the other recent changes to other classes.

Yes, you can wield a staff. But your stances are better in every respect. Use them, and wreck face.
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Mr. Forgotten



Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 539

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:27 am    Post subject:

I completely disagree that given the option to use their weapons for defense invalidates their work. I think me just playing this game does exactly the opposite. I enjoy this game thoroughly. I enjoy the hardcore pk aspect. I enjoy the rp aspect. I enjoy the fact that I can escape into a realm of fantasy. But if you're going to base your argument on the fact that AR is not the real world, but at the same time, allow other shit in game to be based off of real world things, then that's just silly.
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Mr. Forgotten



Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 539

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:32 am    Post subject:

Also, I've tested every stance in combat against fighters. Predictably, the offensive stances did not fare too well, and I got eaten up. The defensive stances offered much better protection, but panda style (two-handed defensive) does shit for damage mitigation. I've said this plenty of times in this post. Does it not make sense to do well against someone if you're equally armored but in superior combat style? That's the point I'm trying to make here. THEY HAVE SHITTY DEFENSE AND DAMAGE OUTPUT VS DUAL WIELDERS WHEN IT COMES TO THEM USING THE TWO HANDED STYLES.
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Baer



Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 618
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:33 am    Post subject:

I mean, I could have just said "Because the imms don't want them to". Which is what I was thinking, but hey, I tried to be diplomatic about it.
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Mr. Forgotten



Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 539

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:38 am    Post subject:

If you'll notice. I asked for an explanation in the very first post. I don't think I'm being unreasonable here. All I'm getting are replies that ask me if I'm fucking stupid for wanting to use a weapon instead of hand-to-hand. I've laid out my reasons for doing so, MULTIPLE times. I just want a fucking answer. Explain to me why monks have shitty two-handed styles.
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Faelon
Emissary


Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Your moms house.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:12 am    Post subject:

Baer's response regarding your "Common lore" argument, holds. AR is based in some regards upon books, in other regards upon folk lore, and yet in other regards upon whatever the hell someone happened to be thinking of at the time. So YOUR argument is, to quote you, "Silly".

The only argument that is valid is because you think it should be implemented. I haven't seen, in game or otherwise, anything that changes my opinion that staff/bow is the answer to your problem. Even with Parry it doesn't fix your problem, you are going to get wrecked harder then you would with Panda, because with Panda you have three defenses "First hand, second hand and dodge."

Your problem is "I'm getting worked right now by warriors who dual wield."

The issue with how you are taking it up is that you aren't presenting facts outside of saying "Trust me on this". And no, I am not saying out yourself. But because you went public immediately, instead of posting this in the ask an immortal section and then posting logs, you are now at risk of outing yourself in order to help solve the problem.

That's my two cents. Good luck.
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ewils03



Joined: 05 Jan 2015
Posts: 153

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:20 am    Post subject:

The only reason a monk should be using a weapon is to get through barrier, since they have no magic attacks after that fist of fury change back when now. I'll agree about panda, though, you eat a lot of damage for being a defensive stance and not dishing out much in return. I'd suggest matching their combat style until panda gets reworked (if and when). True, you won't build chii like a champ, but that chii doesn't do any good if you're getting eaten up in panda.
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Mr. Forgotten



Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 539

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:13 am    Post subject:

I'm not saying that it should be implemented. I'm asking for a reason from the staff why it's so bad...I suppose I could have just put this in ask an immortal...I might use it if it was available, but my question remains the same. Why? Why is it not available? Everyone seems to be thinking that I'm doing this just because I got my ass kicked and think this is the magical solution. I can take getting beat. It affords me the opportunity to learn.... You know what I learned? I learned that monks cant stand up to fighters that dual wield because ALL of the monks two-handed styles are shitty. There's no point to use them. I've been saying this all along. I don't think a staff is going to save me, but I find it fucking stupid that Monks can't defend themselves with staves, just because people would think it's a stupid thing to do in this game. Might as well have ninja's that can't hide. Or Warriors that don't know how to use a sword. Maybe you could have bards that don't sing and Necromancers that don't raise the dead. That's a fanciful idea.

Last edited by Mr. Forgotten on Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mr. Forgotten



Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 539

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:20 am    Post subject:

The special attacks that monks do right after changing styles, they are enhanced. Dragon style does holy damage. Tiger style does fire damage. Mantis style does slicing damage. Snake style does poison damage. Leopard style does cold damage. Crane style does mental damage. Drunken style does water damage. Panda style does lightning damage. Monkey style does arcane damage. Those attacks get through barrier, all except mantis. Barrier is NOT an issue for monks that know how to fight. I know this because I've defeated several invokers. You just have to wear a lot of saves and go into Monkey style. You beat the shit out of them and their spells hardly ever hit you.

During the time your attacks are enhanced, for every enhanced attack you do, you build a chii tier for CHII BOLT, or a costless heal. If you use your CHII BOLT at the 3rd tier, you will cancel out their barrier. If you're using a weapon, you don't generate CHII of any kind, so I don't see the ''obvious'' benefits of allowing a Monk to use a weapon if they so chose. So what's the problem with allowing a Monk to parry with any of their learned weapons?
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:56 am    Post subject:

Hey Mr.Forgotten, how about you quit being such a fucking asshole and consider why anyone's going to debate with you while you're trying to put a gun to our heads with the "im gonna quit". Fuck off.
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Olyn
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:47 pm    Post subject:

I'd be fine with monks parrying with staff if their dodge was disabled while they wield weapons.
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Olyn
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:20 pm    Post subject:

On second thought, even that would let monks ride out hobble too easily.
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Dogran
Immortal


Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 1794

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:59 pm    Post subject:

Honestly, Your problem is monk vs ranger, not VS all duAL wielders. You may be forgetting the pet damage involved, as well as the fact that you should be taking more advantage of dirt. Dirt/switch against a fighter will fuck them over while not hurting you. You can change weapons (meaning styles in monks cases) where rangers cant. Dirt them force them into inferior, and whoop on them. That was your problem, but you gotta do something about the pets.
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:15 pm    Post subject:

Hey guys, did ya'll forget about belly bounce? Its a panda skill, mitigates damage... just saying. Also, panda if for those who want to avoid stuff like bashes and what not. that bungling you do when you're tripped/bashed but not lagged that eats your mana, that's panda, doings its thing.
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Mr. Forgotten



Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 539

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:26 am    Post subject:

I only said I deserve better treatment, Dickhead. Not being ignored or told I'm fucking stupid for asking a god damn question. I'm not holding a gun to anyone's head. I'm not being an asshole to anyone, I was just explaining myself, which I did REPEATEDLY. But no one seems to grasp the concept. That's fine. I've already moved on.
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