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Earth Invokers
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deioped



Joined: 25 Aug 2014
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:57 pm    Post subject: Earth Invokers

Is a damroll/hitroll build viable for earth invokers instead of the HP build?

Seeing that earth spells will shatter an opponent's physical resistance...
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:40 pm    Post subject:

I'm pretty sure all invokers could go with hit/dam.
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Dogran
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Joined: 13 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:25 pm    Post subject:

You could go with hit dam, but Hp/Ac will always be best.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:07 pm    Post subject:

I think a 30/50 invoker could be pretty gnarly.
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deioped



Joined: 25 Aug 2014
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:57 pm    Post subject:

I see.. Thanks
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Olyn
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:13 pm    Post subject:

Because he only gets two attacks and doesn't get enhanced damage, I never put much stock into hit/dam for the invoker. I see the earth invoker as more of a support invoker. He breaks physical resistance so his whole group can smash,
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:22 pm    Post subject:

Heals ftw.
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divsky
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Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 1054
Location: Iowa City, IA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:25 pm    Post subject:

If you want to play a hit/damroll invoker do the following:

1) Roll a human warrior
2) Buy tons of wands of shielding from the wand seller in Timaran (they have the lowest weight and are fairly cheap). Get at least 20.
3) Remove your shield or dual wield weapon. You're an invoker now you only get 2 defenses.
4) Hold a wand
5) Set up an alias to zap your wand, get a new one out of your sack, and hold it
6) Congratulations! You now do unblockable *** damage every turn just like a real invoker, plus 4th attack, dodge and parry

No sanc but that's okay because you can quaff purples in battle without holding them.
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deioped



Joined: 25 Aug 2014
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:13 pm    Post subject:

Ah.. all that extra AC and hp really does help a lot!

Thanks guys!
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:02 am    Post subject:

what is wrong with hit/dam invoker? this seems like bad or lazy advice. imo staves/wands/scroll can make up for the benefits you'd get from hp/ac. and naturally resistances vs spells lower your dps. damroll and hit seems to be the only things that will stand the test of time and you can always go for the hit/dam armor with higher ac. hp might be useful vs a necro or berserker but maybe it depends on playstyle. i've never went hp/ac on an invoker. crazy talk
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Mikoos



Joined: 03 Nov 2012
Posts: 474

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:28 am    Post subject:

Using staves/wands/scrolls just doesn't work for modern AR. Everyone is too fast/skillful for that. I could see it working if an item had unlimited charges, but might as well give invokers cure light at that point. or if they could do something like a Necro's summon/vamp of mobs with an aff check.
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Faelon
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Your moms house.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:56 am    Post subject:

At some point, have Kato give you the math for the reason why AC/HP trumps hit/dam on a caster. It's stupid just how powerful that can become.

Give me a 1200 HP/550+AC invoker over a 700 HP/150+ AC 30hit/40dam invoker any day of the week.

Also. As was said previously. No enhanced damage. Two attacks, max. You aren't doing what you are supposed to be doing, which is staying in combat to fuck people up with boomstick spells.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:28 am    Post subject:

I'd take 30/50 with 500ac over 1200hp and 600ac.

Consumables are not to be underestimated.
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:14 pm    Post subject:

what ergorion said. anyone who says consumables doesn't work in AR is def not knowledgeable and should not be giving advice on the matter.

my pinnacled invokers have always been top 3 pre and post changes, and I've always capitalized on hit/dam over ac/hp.

i wouldn't mind seeing that math faelon, but hp/ac is finite, the potential for consumables are not however (comparatively) so I don't see how the math works unless you're going for straight forward stand in combat blasting your target (Which is not really how classes with scrolls/staves/wands are best played). Why waste armor slots on what consumables can make up for? there aren't any good consumeables for hit/dam.
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Faelon
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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Location: Your moms house.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:11 pm    Post subject:

The problem is you are ignoring that consumables are also usable for those who go for AC/HP setup.

With the AC/HP setup, you can stay longer in combat, substantially longer then any person using a Hit/Dam setup could do, even with consumables. Then stack consumables on top of an AC/HP setup and you get this -

AC and HP can be seen to be equal, in the sense that a higher AC fundamentally equals more HP. This is because, for each strike on your higher AC, less HP is spent. This means that each time you heal, more HP is healed per consumable.

As an Invoker, you don't get more then two attacks. You also don't have enhanced damage. So you are effectively taking staying power away from your primary output, in order to try and hit someone who is likely out defending you.

Best Invoker in recent memory - Xaq. http://abandonedrealms.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9465&highlight=xaq

You'll notice he is wearing primarily eathern items (HP/AC) with very few damage items and likely only those for the AC they provide.

Also, as a last parting thought, don't say "Well that's Kato, he'll work you naked." That isn't true, the reason he is good at this game is because he thinks about each individual piece and finds the best way to implement this knowledge. AC/HP > HIT/DAM for invoker as a general rule.


Last edited by Faelon on Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:12 am; edited 2 times in total
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:45 pm    Post subject:

I'm pretty sure Grunky worked well as a hit/dam invoker. But that was a long time ago.

The trade off is also in how many rounds youre eating. A dual wielding ranger can dish out 150+ damage in one round. By going hp, you're giving them more rounds because they can stay in combat longer as well.

If you go hit/dam, you diminish their potential damage output which essentially equates to more hp for you.

I really don't want to roll an invoker.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:32 pm    Post subject:

Earth and Lightning invokers are specifically designed to be able to roll hit/dam if they want to. Nothing is preventing other invokers from doing this. For over 10 years hit/dam was considered strictly superior to hp/ac and all I did was make hp/ac viable.
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Mikoos



Joined: 03 Nov 2012
Posts: 474

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:56 am    Post subject:

ottif wrote:
what ergorion said. anyone who says consumables doesn't work in AR is def not knowledgeable and should not be giving advice on the matter.

my pinnacled invokers have always been top 3 pre and post changes, and I've always capitalized on hit/dam over ac/hp.


I don't believe you. The only invoker I know who was at the top for a significant amount of time was Xaq in the last five years.

Now, I wouldn't underestimate consumables, but they're definitely not the answer. sure, you can farm 20 bright/red potions, but when you run out in a fight, what then? If they're suppose to be a farming class, then give them summon or something.
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Olyn
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:23 am    Post subject:

Every class is better when consumables are properly used.
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m1coftw



Joined: 05 May 2015
Posts: 265

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:14 pm    Post subject:

What about Abyss Invokers?
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