Forum Links 

Click to return to main page
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile  Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages    Log inLog in 
 Current Top Rated Killers 
 Next Event   Voting Links 


The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 15 hours.

[Matchup] Warriors vs Monks

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Abandoned Realms Forum Index -> The Battlefield
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
Posts: 163
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:09 am    Post subject: [Matchup] Warriors vs Monks

Pardon me, as this may be a lengthy one. In essence, I simply wish to start a discussion on the topic based on my own personal experience (most of my combat experience stems from duels both in the arena and open areas such as the west woods, north plains, gnome village and ford) and perhaps obtain some feedback and input from other players on how to improve my play. So, I will begin by listing down all the difficulties I face when playing a warrior against a monk.

(1) [Combat initiation]: As a warrior, I only have got essentially 4 initiation options (murder, dirt, bash/trip, charge). Now, murdering is often not the best choice against a monk because more often than not, I tend to get countered alot and it is pretty painful.

Next, it doesn't make sense for me to dirt the monk because the 2 rounds lag is quite detrimental (especially if the dirt kick misses partly due to lower dex and initiation with dirt has lower chance of success), allowing the monk to switch style straight away and dirt/trip me within the next round, essentially putting me in inferior combat style for 2 or 3 rounds. This is also the same reason why I feel that bash/trip and charging is not ideal either especially if I am not confident that I am in superior combat style (there is no way to know by looking at the monk, which combat style he is adopting) before attempting to start with a lag skill or charge.

Considering the abovementioned points, I always find myself initiating with murder nonetheless mainly due to the 1 round lag (lesser than 2 round lag) and with it comes the information of what combat style he is using before further action can be taken. Combat often starts with him countering my murder before coming down to a combat style switching war between the two of us which I will discuss further in my next point.

So, I believe some will say that I should have chosen to start with a dirt (despite the fact that they can switch combat style even in eyes dirted or eyes watering condition), mainly because dirting him at the start, if successful, will deny him information of my combat style and stop him from re-initiating on me (if he so chooses to flee, which he probably won't). At this juncture, he can either dirt me back (which often hits because of his superior dex and dirt after-combat) or stay and wait to see if I switch my weapons to gain combat style superiority (experienced monks are able to do that), if I am not already in superior. Either way, we will both end back up in a combat style switching war, only this time if I was counter-dirted, I only have the option of double-gripping (only when the dirt is still in my eyes because apparently the game does not allow me to double-grip when my eyes are watering) to switch to two handed stance and we all know how painful leopard style (monk's defensive stance) can be.

(2) [Combat style switching]: From my experience, combat style switching for warriors is almost instantaneous (removing and wearing weapons/shield is 'instant', apart from double-gripping in combat which lags 1 round). However the advantageous effects of being in a superior combat style does not kick in until at least 2 to 3 rounds later (it seems to be time dependent). In other words, if I so happen to switch my weapons out of combat and I engaged in combat the next moment after switching is completed, it still takes that same amount of time for the benefits to kick in (assuming that we started combat with me in superior style).

On the other hand for the monk (correct me if I am wrong here), the switching of styles will lag them for 1 round after command input but the benefits will kick in immediately upon execution of command.

So, when you put these two conditions into play when a warrior and monk are switching styles in combat against each other to gain superiority, and assuming that both can switch immediately upon knowledge of the opponent's style switch, you get a situation where the warrior will never once reap the benefits of the style switching because the monk can switch styles once every round and immediate gain the benefits of the switch, while the warrior will always have to wait 2 to 3 rounds before the benefits kick in.

(3) [Worse scenarios]: The earlier points that I mentioned are mainly based on the fact that I could pull off the initiation on my end, which already mostly end up in situations that do not favor me. Now if he is to initiate with a dirt and succeed, not only do I not know his combat style, I will also be at a loss because it does not benefit me to counter-dirt him as he can switch to any style in combat while dirted/eyes watering, while I can only double-grip (to two handed) in dirted and not while eyes are watering.

I have considered other options such as going into reflex mode immediately after being dirted (since I do not know his combat style), then switching according if needed (only option is to go to two handed using double-grip). In this situation, if he happened to be in superior style at combat initiation, he will then attempt to use lag skills on me which will only further worsen my predicament since I won't be able to use double-grip even after I know of his style through his in-combat forms.

(4) [Reflex mode]: On a side note, directly quoted from the helpfile on 'reflex', ***Finally, against many offensive attacks, such as disarm and lag skills, reflex mode allows the warrior to riposte many of the attempts before they have a chance to even succeed.***, this I have never seen it happen once. I wonder if this is even true to any extent because I still get tripped easily in reflex mode, despite having mastered riposte and in overbear mode.


In closing, I just wish to point out that the only situation that I have across when I come out on top of an engagement is when he attempted to initiate with a dirt and misses me, and ho lucky me I was in superior style right from the start, so while reaping the benefits of the style superiority, I hobbled him and ho lucky me it succeeded, only then he may be forced to flee the engagement. Any other scenarios, such as if I choose to flee with my eyes dirted or watering, will only serve to put me in a bad spot because I cannot switch weapons while dirted (can only double grip) and I cannot switch weapons or double grip when eyes are watering. And while I am off running away, the monk can either choose to re-engage on me while I cannot switch styles or take the time to heal his wounds.

So that is that, please feel free to leave me any comments and feedback as to how I can improve and what I have done wrong. Feel free to flame me too if you feel that I have made some invalid points. I am all ears.

P.S. Is the warrior skill "overpower" even useful? 100mv cost for a skill that still has a chance of failing hobble despite having the benefits of being in superior style. If anyone would enlighten me on this.

Thank you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:37 pm    Post subject:

Warriors beat monks in confined spaces, I can attest to this as I have had my ass handed to me by a warrior on a monk toon in an enclosed space. Monks need room to run, much like a healer does to heal the damage, despite their great mitigation skills, they still thrive by healing it up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
divsky
Emissary


Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 1054
Location: Iowa City, IA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:46 pm    Post subject:

As the warrior: You can't disarm them, they have blind-fighting so dirt kicking is pointless, and there's no point in lagging them other than preventing a flee. The only thing to do as a warrior vs a monk is to hobble them. Style superiority helps immensely with that. Get the style advantage, hobble, and pound them down as hard as you can.

As the monk: There's actually a ton of options here. Stay in style superiority, disarm them, nerve them, and hit them with stance kicks. Heal as often as possible. The longer the fight lasts the more likely the monk is to win.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
divsky
Emissary


Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 1054
Location: Iowa City, IA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:50 pm    Post subject:

Also overpower is worth it. You're using the ability at an 8 level advantage when using it. That is HUGE especially in warrior vs monk where the only important thing is hitting hobble. With athleticism the mv comes back fast enough that it isn't as big of a deal as you'd think.

But there's a HUGE caveat. Overpower is really only worth it if overpower is mastered. If you use it at 75% you're introducing a 25% chance to fail that wasn't there before. Which means your chances of landing the hobble may actually go DOWN when using overpower below 100%.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
Posts: 163
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:20 am    Post subject:

Andrael: Thank you for the comment. In response, I can only agree partially with you that warriors beat monks in enclosed space. In my opinion, fighting monks in an enclosed space (such as the arena) only essentially denies them of their healing capacity. It does not change the "fact" (you may disagree with me) that they still hold combat superiority/advantage in battles/engagements. From my personal experience, fighting in enclosed space only helps me to level the playing field to 'even/slightly less than even' when the fights still come down to combat initiation and style switching to gain superiority most of the time. When the stars align (I was fast enough to deny healing and I somehow managed to outdamage the monk in engagements), only then will I be able to win by a slight margin (less than 10% hp remaining). All in all, it's still a uphill battle when there are more things that could go wrong for me.

divsky: Thanks for the feedback and insight. If what you said about overpower is true (I hope the failure chance that you mentioned was not referring to the failure to overpower, but the failure chance to make him clutch his legs), then it is truly worth mastering it, then I will probably be able to successfully hobble the opponent in 'even' stance. Because, for the heck of it, there is no way that I can find a situation where I can attempt hobble in advantageous stance because the monk will always be able to switch out (if he so wishes to) before my advantage kicks in.

What perplexes me most is not the fact that I will never obtain combat style 'advantage' due to the delay before it kicks in (this is acceptable IMO because it is only fair that no one side gains the style advantage immediately upon a switch, as in the case of two warriors switching against each other), but the fact that monks get the style advantage immediately upon execution of switch command. This allows the monk to ultimately come out on top of a drawn-out engagement when both sides are switching in response to the other (please correct me if I am wrong here).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Faelon
Emissary


Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Your moms house.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:53 am    Post subject:

A warrior can switch styles instantly, while a monk has a post switch lag and a limited supply of chii. When the monk switches, if you switch instantly, he'll switch and you can switch instantly. This would drain the monks resources.

It is imperative that you kick dirt and look for the missed dirt by them. If you get this situation to arise, you can drag down a lot of hp. Blind fighting doesn't equal perfect defense/offense while blind. It simply equals not sucking completely.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
Posts: 163
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:08 am    Post subject:

Faelon: Thank you so much for the tips, you have certainly given me much insight and I am finally seeing the light at the end of this tunnel. I hope I will get there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:06 pm    Post subject:

vs monk all a warrior needs to do is dual dagger and foreign weapons with flee murder
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:48 pm    Post subject:

The recipe for warrior success is simple: outdamage them and lag skills.

I think I have to thank fireballer for that wisdom.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Abandoned Realms Forum Index -> The Battlefield All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group