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Recent shadow updates
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 8621
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:02 am    Post subject:

What ability exactly are you referring to beia.
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beia



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 891
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:05 am    Post subject:

The art of the condor. I thought we were all on the same page!
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:23 am    Post subject:

Art of the condor does not allow you to just gate to the target. It makes you vanish and then reappear in their vicinity, and it is highly unlikely it would be in the same room. It can potentially also land you in aggressive creatures. It also has a long cooldown that prevents any of the other "forgotten arts" from being used. It would make no sense for that to require marks of shadow because you have to hit the person to get marks of shadow. This skills intent is to enable a player to find someone is hoarding/training somewhere highly remote at 50, and is subject to the normal risks of randomly vanishing in an area.

Is that the art of condor you are talking about? I just want to make sure.
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Nycticora
Immortal


Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2228

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:56 am    Post subject:

are you saying ninjas are using shadow spear on targets without the max macguffin whatevers that they need for their moon magic beia?
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beia



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 891
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:04 pm    Post subject:

Yeah as a shadow you can just teleport to the area of your target without ever even fighting them at all. To me and 99% of the players here it is way to strong. It is like a cabal ability but for Shadows only. Gate at least super lags the user, and has a save check. This shit just works instantly with no lag or anything and no saves.
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Vanisse
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: inside a tree

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:15 pm    Post subject:

Not saying the spell doesn't necessarily need tweaking, but consider this: it's a cross between gate and teleport. Gate is a far higher likelihood of being safe (in fact probably 100% of being safe since you're in the room already and would hit anything aggro first). Whereas the shadow teleports into a random room in your area. If you know a shadow is after you, you could run to say Faerie Fransiz and watch them teleport into a pile of Ylsae Faeries. Or other areas with lots of locked doors/gates. The possibilities are really endless if you have a grasp of how that spell works. Art of Condor was designed to be a double-edged sword but so far you are just looking at one edge of it.
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 289

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:30 pm    Post subject:

Dav, there is a massive difference between being disrespectful and stating the god damn reality of the situation. Not one part of my last post was incorrect...just because truth hurts, doesn't mean I'm being disrespectful. Calling people names is disrespectful. You hypocritical stupid idiot. <- that is me being disrespectful.
You railroaded all this shit through in an over night manic mode I guess, ninjas are now fucked up, you won't take ownership of that, and you want the players of the community to sit back and pat you on the back, stroke your ego, have a fucking tea party, and keep their mouths shut? Get the fuck out of here.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 8621
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:23 pm    Post subject:

double post coz lala why not

how about we sit around and discuss what the fuck is wrong with your behavior
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Last edited by Davairus on Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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divsky
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Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 1059
Location: Iowa City, IA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:31 pm    Post subject:

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Olyn
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 2936
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:25 pm    Post subject:

Okay, so aside from the frustration, here's what I'm seeing:

1) There may be some bugs/unintended behavior with the recent shadow changes.

2) Some veteran players have concerns about the balance/intent of the recent shadow changes.

Let's keep this discourse civil and objective.

We need to identify any bugs so we can fix them and make sure new shadow skills are working as intended so that we can then address balance concerns. That means attention to balance is going to come sooner if we accurately and identify these bugs.

Here's a summary of concerns that I've seen/heard, none of which has been validated.

Code:
Shadows can l33t gate to anyone, anywhere

The 24 cooldown on art of condor may need increased, and we may want to consider a save or other chance of failure beyond the "you lose your concentration" fail. Like some of our other skills, failure here could be given a cooldown equal to 1/2 of the cooldown when the skill works.

Code:
Shadows ghostwalk dodge thing is too powerful

I think the ghostwalk combat dodge thing is as powerful as it is because it was altered to only work once per round, making it sustainable much longer than was originally intended. To me, using it for the combat dodge should be a non-sustainable desperation move for survival that leaves the shadow vulnerable. This may take the form of total ki / mana drain.

Code:
Ghostwalk undetectable in forests and other "non-rogue" sectors doesn't sit well with players

We've begun to take a look at stealth as a whole, so this is likely to be handled then.

Code:
Shadows have uber haste and get 10 attacks / round via shadow machine

AFAIK, this is unfounded and the product of the one-sided "murder round" perfectly timed to appear in the same block of combat as the first two-sided round. It requires dual wield, so you should be able to exploit that with usual dual wield counters. This ability should be taxing their mana hard.


Code:
Shadow spear is uber when performed after art of condor

I believe this is intended, although the shadow arts helpfile says shadow spear requires full mark of shadow to function, meaning there has been more than a few rounds of battle already for this scenario. I would like to see shadow spear fail if the player is already fighting. A scenario comes to mind where the shadow uses art of condor to get to the same area as his target and lands in aggro mobs. He should not be able to shadow spear to the "safety" of his pk opponent.

Code:
Shadow spear doesn't actually require full mark of shadow or full strip mark of shadow when used

I admit that I'm just scratching the surface of the code on the new shadow stuff, but it does appear to me at a glance that shadow spear will work with any amount of mark of shadow, not necessarily full marks. Players please confirm. It looks to me like it should be stripping properly when used, but again, players please confirm. If we have a bug in either of those areas it's major.


Feel free to add anything that I missed, and again, please take two breaths and leave egos, attitudes, and finger-pointing out of this conversation so we can take care of this.
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Nycticora
Immortal


Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2228

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:56 pm    Post subject:

Xenyar how about you man the fuck up and report a bug for Christ sake? If you actually gave a shit you'd be reporting a bug and not berating Davairus. I don't have a single fucking bug about any of this bullshit:

issue search subject spear
[ 33]: Immortal: [BUG] The weapon improvise helpfile says it gives skill in axe, flail, polearm, staff and whip. It also gives skill in maces, as I've just
learned on my bard. (spears too, maybe?)

issue search subject teleport
No matches found for that.

issue search subject gate
[ 54]: Immortal: [BUG] if quest $n == draconia 4 ... need to investigate this, and replace it with the right function if it is bad. it seems bad
[277]: Immortal: [BUG] we could be able to gate to "random" since its possible to gate to 492.

issue search subject ninja
[101]: Immortal: [BUG] help prompt should point monks and ninjas and healers and what not to the explain the bars that show up on their prompts
[222]: Davairus: [BUG] assassinate weird for non-ninjas issue. cleanup sometime

issue search subject shadow
[ 18]: Immortal: [BUG] Shadow shuriken also has a 'shadow arts' cooldown, but seems to be able to be bypassed.
[100]: Immortal: [BUG] no help file for shadow skill 'relentless'
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 211

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:03 pm    Post subject:

Just one more question. Do you guys really believe tanking 6 rounds against a berserker and receiving zero damage really due to RNG stars aligning? I find it really really hard to convince mysel of that. Like really?

I think xenyar has a point on having vet players testing out the class first and give feedback before full implementation? I remembered getting destroyed by a psionicist tester a long time ago. He ass raped me with nothing but mind blast.
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Nycticora
Immortal


Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2228

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:16 pm    Post subject:

Lorne didn't seem to have a problem with it considering he didn't post a log or file a bug so why are you so concerned
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 8621
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:18 pm    Post subject:

Suppose a drug is effective in 80% of patients. If five patients are treated, how many will respond?

Many people reason that 80% means 4 out of 5, so if 5 people are treated, exactly 4 will respond. Always.

Others understand that things are not guaranteed to work out so neatly, but they still believe that it is highly likely that 4 people would respond. Maybe a 90% chance.

In fact, there’s only a 41% chance that exactly 4 would respond out of a sample of 5.
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 211

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:46 pm    Post subject:

Nyc, maybe because he isnt the only berserker player out there? And if it's a bug causing it i dont wanna get ass smacked by a bug? And should i only be concerned about things that affect me? Lorne isnt concerned means we should shove it aside?


Dav, sure. That's one experiment, but what about the odds for it happening 6 times in a row? You have the exact numbers for when a defense will work or not i dont. For me, i based it off personal experience and i have never seen it happen but sure, just wanna get the feel of others. This is too hard for me to believe, but i giess it can be easily tested if ghostwalk is bugged by the imms. So incould be wrong.
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Nycticora
Immortal


Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2228

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:55 pm    Post subject:

that's a pretty big if considering I already told you there isn't a bug in that area

also yes, if you rage with weapon disadvantage against a sidestepping rogue you will get dunked 6 out of 6 times (shadow and thief both) which you should know if you're a berserker player and the fact that we're even having this conversation puts me in a somewhat uncomfortable position considering that
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asudan



Joined: 13 Apr 2014
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:57 pm    Post subject:

I received I think eleven attacks in one round, Nyc said he didn't see me complain although i have never ate 11 attacks by a warrior in my entire AR career (12+) years, much less a shadow. I loved the old ninjas, assassinate might be cheesy, but an effective way to destroy a hoarder-thieves get blackjack and pry. I'm not downplaying the work of the immortals, but I don't think much was reviewed about their powerhouse skills.
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Olyn
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 2936
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:14 pm    Post subject:

Dual wielding warriors can get 14 attacks in a well timed murder "double round".

Anyway, please try to address specific points such as the ones I brought up in my previous post. We're just spinning our wheels in this thread.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 8621
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:36 pm    Post subject:

All four high level forgotten arts (scorpion, tarantula, chamelon and condor) were discussed with, reviewed, and approved of by Burzuk almost 15 years ago before even a single line of code was written. They are my own original ideas. I raised concerns myself that he was letting me have too much, but he said to me, and I quote "Its a lot easier to fix something up than to start over from scratch". Maybe he overestimated the usefulness of logs and public forum. I also had Zafrin look at those skills. They have passed more scrutiny than most skills have needed to.
But please, continue to shit on what you don't understand. I love it when people make assumptions with no facts.
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Nycticora
Immortal


Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2228

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:06 pm    Post subject:

I'd prefer to just see some individual bugs raised and some first-person logs in the log board. I cannot take action on rumor and speculation.
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