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Recent shadow updates
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 283

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:28 pm    Post subject:

Come on guys... I think the fact people are still complaining about this and you guys are still asking for more evidence is just silly. Just more thought should have gone into the balancing of these new ninjas before implementing. I loved the old ninjas, they were powerhouses but only if used correctly and only in limited circumstances. Whatever they've become is a major turn off for me. You guys are gutting Burzuk's work, but at least he had a clear vision for all the classes and races and how they balanced in the spectrum. Do you guys?
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divsky
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Joined: 13 Mar 2004
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Location: Iowa City, IA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:45 pm    Post subject:

On their own the forgotten arts skills are fine and fit in well with the theme of shadows. They should be assassins who swoop out of nowhere and gank.

The problem is all the stuff they get on top of that. Ghostwalk is ridiculous and probably should be removed entirely. There's no reason for shadows to be that tanky. Having heals on an assassin class with hide is pretty questionable too.
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Ceridwel
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Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:31 am    Post subject:

Divsky, have you tried ghostwalk since the ki upkeep was increased? You run out of ki very, very quickly when using this now.
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Vanisse
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Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2473
Location: inside a tree

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:31 am    Post subject:

Nycticora and Olyn are asking you for concrete, quantifiable, examples for the anecdotes that a vocal bunch of you are taking issues with. Thus far we have only seen on stream-captured logs which show only a limited amount of data.

I think you all should realize by now that we try to only take action (and, in my humble opinion, should only take action) with issues where we can prove and assess the bug at hand and adjust it, rather than kneejerk fixes to poorly characterized complaints. Instead, you are all throwing shade at Davairus for trying to improve a class that was often dismissed as underpowered. This is not helping anyone here. We want to improve the class and create a good experience for you guys. And you want to have a good experience.

Maybe instead of all this shit flinging you can just provide the test proof that we are asking for. We're not saying we don't believe anything you've been saying. We are simply asking for you, the players who spend many hours in this game, to record the incidents as they happen, rather than you playing for hours, then us having to test for hours to try to replicate what you saw. If you make a bug happen, or you make an OP situation happen, just log it, post the log, and report it to us in a bug. This minimal effort on your part will help our coders to fix balance issues. It's that simple.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:00 am    Post subject:

The assassinate damage (especially with poison mastery damage) and haste affect of shadow machine are the offenders. I've already known that for some time. Its interesting that those fly under the radar though. Its the mobility/"tanking"/"healing" parts of the class that seem to bother. Which are kinda the most required, because that's what makes it a hybrid. Seeing that confusion in the playerbase is what makes me prefer to wait before I choose what to do
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beia



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 807
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:31 am    Post subject:

Yes wait until we all rage quit! Haha
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:47 am    Post subject:

Yes, making everybody rage quit is my goal beia.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:09 am    Post subject:

I'm just going to go ahead and also point out at this time, that after I did exactly what divsky demanded, it buffed the shadow class hilariously to the point now way more people are up in arms about it. Hilarious. Game balance isnt easy folks. It takes time and it takes a community, not one person no matter how much he gives a crap. Like it or not this is the result of the community we have who were 100% checked out and not giving a crap about it. This is my favorite class and I was stellar happy with it when I finished making all these changes. I mean that sincerely.
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beia



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
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Location: Texas

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:29 am    Post subject:

It's the flavor of the month like monks were. They got toned down also, still somethings likely need to be checked out but all in all there is no bad ass monk murdering everyone so easily. I like the changes to shadows, but still I think somethings (as described above) need to be fixed or removed. It's up to you though! I can only offer my opinion.
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ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
Posts: 101
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:00 am    Post subject:

Alright, I am just gonna chip in here.

Ghostwalk, when it could dodge every attack in the earlier stage, was really strong. I could practically tank indefinitely against players if I have the mana to spare. I felt invincible against any melee classes and would just enter the fight with no fear. Of course, the more I ghostwalk, the more mana I expend, but at higher levels, that isn't really an issue due to the huge mana pool and since all of my mana are better used for ghostwalk anyway. Now, ghostwalk only dodges 1 round max, which reduced its effectiveness quite abit, but it also reduced the mana consumption which allowed me to retain much of my mana.

Shadow machine was even more ridiculous (I have a feeling that it wasn't coded like the normal haste, which ended up making attacks proc too often back then, but it's just a hunch on my end anyway) but it had been gutted quite early due to the huge activation mana cost and 20 mana drain/sec now. It's not cost-effective anymore, which was why shadow shuriken became the new cheese, with it being an enchantment effect for a few hours that lets you throw shurikens in combat for free, effectively netting you extra attacks that does tons of damage (I think it hides your combat style status from the enemy too). That has been gutted too.

There was a bug with shadow spear at the early stages, but that had been fixed I believe. You now need full marks to spear to the target, but it's the best initiate you can ever get because it is even faster than mob aggro! It also removes all previous marks upon execution.

I am not so certain about Art of the Condor though, but I guess it doesn't sit well with most players if shadows can gate to the area of the target. If you'd ask me, I would rather be able to gate to the area of the target instead of to the target directly so that I can hide and sneak into the room to land an ambush attack, instead of getting hit with my pants down after appearing directly in his face. Of course, there are the down-sides of possibly landing in a dangerous room but I can't comment much on that since I don't have much experience with that.

In any bad situation, I could just run away, hide and meditate to regain my health and mana as if I was sleeping (I retain hidden status when I am meditating). In ghostwalk, I can also gain 15mana per hide so in each tick, I can just hide 7 times and mediate, which effectively lets me regenerate about 175 mana per tick.

Maybe the immortals are really busy with all the other stuff, with all the new areas and stuff and perhaps most of them are not pk-oriented like the players here who actually commented on this thread. I guess to some of us players (at least for me), the pk element and game balance of this game holds a higher priority than anything else since everytime we log on, we are always looking out for threats and pk-related dangers more than any other.

I would have thought that it wouldn't be too hard (maybe I am wrong) to just immortal-poof a dummy test shadow character to have duels with another melee class in some isolated test area to test the effectiveness of the skills and spells before launching. But well, I am always available if you need any testers!

Anyway, Shikuro is at the forefront of all shadow-related cheeses. Just look to him for anything new! Haha. Peace-out!
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 197

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:42 am    Post subject:

Here's the thing. Technically a warrior can hit 16 times in a double round. Have i seen a 16 round attack on a warrior ever? No i have never seen it. Technically, a berserker can miss 6 rounds in a row. Have i seen it until recently? Never. Technically parry can parry 100 rounds of attacks consecutively.

So what's my point? I dont have hard figures for you about whether this can or cannot happen. Lots of things are technically it can happen but in truth, you dont see it ever happening. If you telling me ghostwalk wasnt bug and i believe you, then i must say something is making shadow fucking OP to receive 0 damage against a decently equipped raging zerker for 6 rounds whether the stars and moon aligned today. Have you seen something that ridiculous? Not even a scratch when he took 3 rounds out of the 6 unsanced. Even if lorne was doomed to lose that fight, he would have at least dealt a scratch to the shadow. Anyway, I'm gonna rest my case on this issue. No point in discussing this further.

So i brought this up because you guys are asking for real hard proof on certain issues, but as players playing the games, we cannot offer you the proof on certain issue. For me, i just highlight things that looked really ridiculous and it's up to the imms to discuss and decide.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 8110
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:26 am    Post subject:

Meriandox, why do you keep regurgitating the same material? I've already read you write the same shit three or four times now and I've already responded in two separate places. I'll tell you what's riduculous - you are.
Also ridiculous: beia becoming the least insane person on the forums

Useful post Ivindel. Had a feeling that level scaling on ghostwalk cost wouldve been a better answer
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Olyn
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:36 pm    Post subject:

Thank you, Ivendel. Ghostwalk is not meant to be sustainable. We'll definitely look at that.
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Multore



Joined: 06 Feb 2015
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:45 pm    Post subject:

Dav you could have the cost of ghostwalk multiplied per round so it becomes more taxing the longer it is used. Not sure what the cost currently is but effectively 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc. That would make it useful for short periods offensively and longer periods defensively (no other mana skills being used)

Just an alternate option on cost.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:48 pm    Post subject:

I've made some changes today

- hide no longer lets the shadow spam for mana
- ghostwalk "1 per round" restriction reverted, added scaling mana cost instead. it will cost at LEAST 50 mana at level 50 and thats the bare minimum, so its from between 50-150 mana
- shadow machine scaling mana cost increased to level*3 per round instead of 60 per round flat
- smoke/dust type creating skills use only mana instead of ki, so they arent "spammed" for mana
- meditate now unhides the shadow when used
- the additional hide from ghostwalk up has been removed pending ethereal. you have a nice hide in sunken state as well incase you forget
- forgotten arts mana ->ki regen has been disabled since we have reclaim ninjitsu performing adequately for this
- additional ki gain from art of scorpion has been halved
- adrenaline check added and lag doubled for art of condor (the shadow using it must have ZERO adrenaline to perform this, to be clear)
- seeing a shadow will now alert you to then for 12 ticks. this prevents assassinate until it wears off. the shadow can use spectral sight to see if youve been alerted. the way to "see" a shadow (to become alert) has lots of methods but basically where/scan/look and any emotes type action (like summoning him) will make you alert.
- hiding does not remove this alert affect.

Post your questions below.
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Last edited by Davairus on Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Vanisse
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Joined: 06 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:22 pm    Post subject:

relevant helpfiles updated
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beia



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
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Location: Texas

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:24 pm    Post subject:

Awesome updates! Thank you!
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 289

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:09 am    Post subject:

Nyc, my point wasn't about bugs...nothing to do with that at all. It was about the ninja updates themselves, and everything involving and leading up to that point. I knew a monstrous wave of changes was coming for them...that was inevitable...and I'm certain another wave or two is coming in. I'm sure I speak on half of the community(again), I feel that a lot of people's fun was heavily hindered the last couple weeks... and that's where the heated posts from everybody came from.

Thank you for starting to fix...sincerely. Maybe the happy median of "balanced" will eventually come...at this moment though, and I am ready to change my mind if the time comes, but I still stand my ground that half of the new ninja skills are just unneeded for the class, and they would still be formidable, effective pkrs without them.

I do like the start of the changes so far.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:12 pm    Post subject:

There is WAY too much negativity and closed-mindedness is where the heated posts from everybody came from.
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Nycticora
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Joined: 09 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:07 pm    Post subject:

It's not that simple, both sides are right.

On the one hand, the first wave of ninja changes was implemented with an ass factor of around 0.25 and I would have preferred something closer to half ass. Some mechanics were poorly explained and some skills interacted poorly. Some skills had no failure chance tied to the skill percentage and many of the damage outputs and mana costs and all that stuff was also unbalanced and needed to be tweaked.

On the other hand, I can't easily fix these issues with no player input. I haven't played a ninja and while I did have hours-long discussions with Davairus about some of the mechanics for the features he was implementing, I don't necessarily know if a particular aspect of a skill was intentional or a mistake. I need to infer from context.

I could sit down for 8 to 12 hours (that's my entire weekend fyi) and debug the class down to the nuts and bolts. That is possible. I get the feeling some of you guys think it's easy, though. The sentiment is "why don't the imms just test this stuff" "why don't they just fix it" etc. Well it's not a "just" when nobody knows what the problem is. And no, "nerf ghostwalk" and "ninjas are hasted" aren't solutions when the actual problem is shit like a damage amplifier on initiation Assassinate. When we rework a class to have a bunch of mobility and utility skills and to be more complex and get feedback like "this class is too complex all the mobility and utility skills should be removed" I'm sorry but that's not actionable. There's nothing I can do there. You're asking me to revamp the entire class, again, from scratch, when we just did that. That's how much work that is.

Davairus also can't simply "do a better job". He only has so much time to spend on a class revamp. The choice is between releasing it half-finished and relying on the players to report bugs and not releasing anything at all. The types of changes made to Ninja can't be rolled out incrementally. Taking away the instant kill on Assassinate is too big a deal.

this post is too fuckin long but basically I got a little pissed off when people were like "I can't be bothered to type the word bug followed by a description of my problem dude, just sacrifice your weekend to fix the fucking class. This is ridiculous."
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