Forum Links 

Click to return to main page
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile  Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages    Log inLog in 
 Current Top Rated Killers 
 Next Event   Voting Links 


The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 10 hours.

Windmill cleave
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Abandoned Realms Forum Index -> The Battlefield
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Grimjark



Joined: 09 Jun 2016
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:30 pm    Post subject: Windmill cleave

I am just going to necro this old log

http://abandonedrealms.com/logs/view_log.php?id=317

to highlight something about windmill cleave. It's a huge problem that I face recently with the influx of rangers and shadows. Warriors, with their already lack of detects, have to depend on this only AOE skill to bring rangers, shadows and thieves out of hiding after guessing or deducing the likely hiding spot. Aside from the fact that the warrior HAS to be in two-handed style to be able to execute windmill cleave, the skill requires a one-round windup which practically renders the skill useless because the target will have either left the room by then or initiated on the warrior in defensive style which is really shitty for the warrior.

I really hope that some kind of balance could be done for this, considering that monks can execute resonating wave on command input, and the fact that rangers, thieves and shadows can practically still stay camouflaged or hidden indefinitely despite adrenaline (the chance of failing is simply too low).

Please look at this extract from the log:
-----------------------------------
<382/855hp 668/707m 439/439mv 21600tnl 1889g 3am (night) no opponent no opponent aggressive>
Grimjark walks in.

<382/855hp 668/707m 439/439mv 21600tnl 1889g 3am (night) no opponent no opponent aggressive>
Grimjark winds himself up, preparing to cleave.

<382/855hp 668/707m 439/439mv 21600tnl 1889g 3am (night) no opponent no opponent aggressive> murder grimjark
You step out from your cover.
Grimjark yells 'Help! I am being attacked by Morzan!'
You hurl a javelin as you close in to attack Grimjark.
Grimjark thrusts your pierce aside in a skillful parry.
Your wrath DISEMBOWELS Grimjark!
Your wrath DISEMBOWELS Grimjark!
Grimjark has some big nasty wounds and scratches.
-------------------------------------------

<557/865hp 625/707m 417/439mv 21600tnl 1889g 12am (midnight) no opponent no opponent aggressive>
Grimjark walks in.

<557/865hp 625/707m 417/439mv 21600tnl 1889g 12am (midnight) no opponent no opponent aggressive>
Grimjark winds himself up, preparing to cleave.

<557/865hp 625/707m 417/439mv 21600tnl 1889g 12am (midnight) no opponent no opponent aggressive> s
A Dirt Trail

[Exits: north south]
A large grizzly bear walks in.

<557/865hp 625/707m 415/439mv 21600tnl 1889g 12am (midnight) no opponent no opponent aggressive> n
You step out from your cover.
A Dirt Trail

[Exits: north south]
------------------------------------
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:41 pm    Post subject:

I honestly haven't heard that the chance of hide failure is too low for a very long time. It does look a bit sad that they just immediately flee/cover again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
 
0 0 0
Kedaleam
Immortal


Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:29 pm    Post subject:

I've personally felt that it's way too easy to hide/camo. Don't know how often I've run across it but it's quite a bit. Failed engage so the flee and hide. Really sucks for classes without AOE of any type.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:17 pm    Post subject:

im on the fence with this one. maybe its a little more apparent with the influx of shadows, but personally, I have had just as many people up and disappear with pk adrenaline as I have had idiots sitting in a room unhidden like a fool resting. to be honest about 50-50. but that's just me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Grimjark



Joined: 09 Jun 2016
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:21 pm    Post subject:

I am wondering if there's anyone else who have come to face a similar problem as I have mentioned above. Please feel free to share your opinions if you have.
I know not many people play a warrior nowadays, but I really feel that something could be done about this. The issue could lie with the ease of camouflaging and hiding successfully despite adrenaline, or perhaps some other solutions could be reached. It doesn't make much sense when a shadow can still remain hidden while meditating to regain health and mana, does it?

Perhaps in the near future, there could be some indications from the immortals if something will be done about this? or maybe nothing at all? At least I know, instead of hopelessly waiting Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:39 pm    Post subject:

This is an example of power creep. Windmill cleave has a windup so that it won't work frequently. Prior to this skill, warriors had no way to perform any AoE attack. If we made it better, it would be expanding the class in a strange direction. I'm not going to comment either way because I don't play warrior classes though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Multore



Joined: 06 Feb 2015
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:16 pm    Post subject:

Not sure if this is really related but thunderclash on berserker will hit hidden mobs in the room and can be used to initiate the fight. Is that an intended result?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
divsky
Emissary


Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 1054
Location: Iowa City, IA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:25 pm    Post subject:

@Nycticora, Warriors were given a tool to deal with hide and camoflage, but the problem is the tool is broken and it doesn't work. The logs posted earlier in this thread show why pretty well.

Even if you manage to deduce which room the thief or ranger is hiding in, you still have to wind up for an attack which gives the target plenty of time to either switch to defensive mode and retaliate or simply leave the room.

I don't think it's power creep to fix something that's broken and clearly not performing its intended function. It's already takes a great deal of skill to locate a hidden thief, shadow or ranger, so a warrior who manages to pull it off shouldn't get punished for it. But the lag from windmill cleave (keep in mind there's lag both before and after the skill is used) does punish the warrior. It's better to just give up and forget about finding the thief or ranger than it is to open yourself up to multiple free rounds of combat disadvantage.

I don't think the problem is that hide and camoflage is overpowered either. Just that this specific tool designed to counter hide and camoflage simply doesn't work.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
divsky
Emissary


Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 1054
Location: Iowa City, IA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:35 pm    Post subject:

Also, please don't nerf hide any more. If you do, there will be no point in using it, so you might as well just remove it from the game.

We just need better counters. What if we had some kind of consumable that could produce a faerie fog like affect? Like this:

Code:
<434/500hp 300/300mana 120/200mv> drop fungal
You drop a bulbous fungal sac.
A bulbous fungal sac explodes into a cloud of spores as it hits the ground!
You begin to glow yellow.
Thiefy begins to glow yellow.

<Yellow Aura> Thiefy limps west.


Since it's a consumable you could restrict its usage by how hard it is to farm. Meaning you can't just spam it everywhere. And it would provide a universal counter to hiding and camoflage for all classes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Olyn
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:40 am    Post subject:

We don't need consumable faerie fog. I'm pretty sure I faked out a few thieves by emoting the wind-up for windmill cleave. I would like to see it stop hitting group mates. I'm open to additional suggestions on how to improve the skill, but I honestly never minded it on my warriors.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
divsky
Emissary


Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 1054
Location: Iowa City, IA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:19 am    Post subject:

If you're emoting that you're winding up for a windmill cleave, and you're not actually winding up for a windmill cleave, that's bad roleplay imho. Besides emotes are colored green now for this very reason, thanks a lot, now I see a lot less emotes and I use them less myself because of how much they stand out.

Maybe I should start a thread in the roleplay thread. Color is rare on AR, and when you see it, it's usually important. So having a brightly colored emote kind of breaks immersion every time for me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Olyn
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:46 am    Post subject:

Think about what a windmill cleave would look like. Would it be possible / make sense for a warrior to wind up and then not swing? Absolutely. Winding up for a windmill cleave and not executing it would be called a feint. In my opinion it's a perfectly acceptable battle tactic. It does not tell the other person what he does, what he feels, or what happens to him. It simply describes the action taken by the character that can provoke a response from another character. The second character retains full control over his response / reaction.

from help emote:
Code:
Emotes can be used to express actions (i.e. body language) that people
can then respond to. They can also be used to provide description, which
is useful for creating atmosphere. Don't do OOC, force other people's
actions for them, or show thoughts.


Actually, I wouldn't be opposed to adding a 'feint' argument to the windmill cleave skill so warriors can do exactly that without the emote.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:41 am    Post subject:

emote disarms you and sends your weapon flying! is against the rules.
emote winds himself up, preparing to cleave. is not against the rules.

See the difference?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:44 am    Post subject:

divsky does have a point, apparently "autocolor" defaults to "on" which does make fucked-up colored emotes

we might want to review what's getting color, it sounds like we've made a mistake here. I'm interested in what you think Olyn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:48 am    Post subject:

Its supposed to default on for newbies only
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
 
0 0 0
Vanisse
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: inside a tree

PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:58 am    Post subject:

maybe a simpler fix is just to convey the full auto toggles list very early on, so everyone is aware what they can customize to their liking.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Grimjark



Joined: 09 Jun 2016
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:02 am    Post subject:

Lol.. looks like windmill cleave won't get any love. I mean, if thunderclash can be executed immediately (if I am not wrong) and it even sends mobs out of the room, why can't windmill cleave to tuned to match the performance of modern AOE skills that are designed to counter stealth?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Olyn
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:50 pm    Post subject:

The primary purpose of thunderclash has nothing to do with stealth, but we're aware that it can be used in that way. I'd say it's likely that windmill cleave will get some tuning when we've discussed it a bit more, but you should understand that every class isn't supposed to have an easy button stealth counter. Rogues are supposed to be able to be able to hide from warriors in cities, just like rangers are supposed to be able to camouflage in forests. That's one of the strengths of those classes. Warrior is designed to be a class with limited AoE / stealth counter.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Grimjark



Joined: 09 Jun 2016
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:21 pm    Post subject:

Olyn: I agree that not all classes are designed to have an easy button stealth counter. It's just that, as the game evolves and new mechanics get introduced, I feel that game balance has to be maintained. For example, how can a shadow be allowed to hide and meditate at the same time to regain hp and mana whereas the ranger can't do the same for camouflage (not sure about thief)? How is it fair that the ranger be allowed a way to know that he has successfully camouflaged whereas the rogues will never know for certain?

In an ideally-balanced game, I believe that each class should have some remote way of dealing with every other class. IMO, this will make for a robust PK system whereby a player can truly become a master of a certain class. Of course, in certain match-ups, the solution will be harder to execute as per designed but there should still be a way to deal with it (unless you are telling me that it was intentional to absolutely not have any form of counter-play at all for certain match-ups). For example, rogues and rangers can stealth away from warriors and the warrior will have to guess the room where they may be stealthed at to attempt a risky AOE skill, which IMO is already tough enough to pull off. However, if the skill is so hard to use due to the windup and consequently 3-round lag in a fixed combat style, it practically renders the skill useless and removes that solution out of the equation. Personally, I always tend to compare warriors to monks who fight very much like a warrior but practically has all kinds of utilities designed to deal with every match-up (this may spark off another round of debate but this is just my own opinion and it is not my intention to step on anyone's toes here).

In the current state of the game, I am sure there are other issues that remained unresolved in the eyes of individuals who play other classes, but I chose to push ahead to bring attention to the problem I face, hoping that a solution could be met. That said, I am really thankful that the immortals are willing to take a second look at it and discuss about it. Whatever the outcome, the least I can say is that I have done what I can on my end.

Sorry for the long wall of text!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
0 0 0
Vevier
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1642
Location: everywhere

PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:55 pm    Post subject:

I like the idea of being able to feint and I am in favor of putting it in. However, I don't think that giving warriors a better way to break stealth is really the problem. I'd rather see a solution like being hobbled preventing hiding effectively.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
 
0 0 1
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Abandoned Realms Forum Index -> The Battlefield All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group