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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 8 hours.

Proposed changes to escape spells
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Sevaush



Joined: 26 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:01 pm    Post subject: Proposed changes to escape spells

Hi guys, I personally think that escape spells are too dominant in this game. It's like a safety net for most classes esp mages and worst still illusionist. I'm proposing a change to this.

quote from ivindel:

"I remember a time when recall used to bring you to the temple in the nearest city. I thought that was pretty balanced because if the person chasing recalls together, at least you wouldn't need to run from darkhaven all the way to valour. I wonder why that change was reversed."

quote from Vevier's reply:

"I believe the change back to hometown recall was based on the fact that people were getting really confused as to why they didn't recall back to their homes and we were stretching to find an in-game explanation for it. You have methods in game of catching people who run (having a buddy at their recall for example)."



Ok, I really think that placing a buddy at the temple is not a solution to this. In fact, it promotes OOC gangbanging and when taken to extreme cases, it affects others players interest in the game. (That's the reason given to me when I got IMM slayed doing that)

I am proposing 2 changes...

1. Word of recall when under PK adrenaline, will make word of recall to the nearest temple. (Only under PK adrenaline)

2. Gate/Heaven's gate. People has been screaming about gate being OP in running. I am proposing a 0hr-1 hr delay on Gate when word of recall is used. That will prevent that word - gate shit that everyone's so pissed off about.

So I am proposing this because as an illusionist player, I have a safety net. I'm not even afraid to enter enemy's territory, after all word-gate i'm out. Simple, nothing to be afraid. Stretching that, even any other classes, I can run really far from my hometown, word and i'm out of danger.

I think this change will level the playing field for all classes. What do you guys think?
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Vevier
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1642
Location: everywhere

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:27 pm    Post subject:

I think a bunch of new players are going to wonder why they aren't recalling to their temples. I think it's going to disorient a lot of people and I don't understand how you intend to justify that sort of change with an 'in character reason': How do you say that you will only recall to a different temple when someone hits you with a sword, that's unintuitive.

I do like the idea of a cooldown on transportation spells (with teleport possibly being exempt), so that you can't just word and run again. I wouldn't mind if word of recall had a lag time before it worked, like gating spells.

I also wouldn't mind an upgrade to the word of recall ability that would allow spellcasters to target the word of recall. If someone has recalled in an area, you could 'c word follow' or something and it would return you to the same temple as the person.

You're right that word of recall is pretty powerful, and there have been a few nerfs since I've been playing, most notably the lag and damage chance for recalling out of the middle of a fight, and now that you can't recall when you're overburdened, it's even more difficult and more classes have the chance to slow you down.

I stand by what I said before: you have options to deal with people who recall away. I don't see any connection between characters coordinating in character to kill an enemy and ooc gangbanging. If you are ooc gangbanging, no amount of change to the rules is going to fix that. YOU need to fix the OOC.
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m1coftw



Joined: 05 May 2015
Posts: 265

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:24 pm    Post subject:

I liked when you would recall to the nearest temple.

I'd catch illus with my pala by sitting at their word spot and summoning their mainly used gate mobs to the temple and just spamming murder/slam there Razz

And then just summon then into a bottleneck when they try to make a run for it.
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divsky
Emissary


Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 1054
Location: Iowa City, IA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:36 pm    Post subject:

What if spells like gate and word of recall left portals that lasted a couple of ticks that other players could enter and follow you through?
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:19 pm    Post subject:

Divsky's idea is really interesting. It could totes be used as an offensive weapon as well and make word not just a defensive escape route.

I like the idea of a cool down on gate after word because word+gate means an illu can disappear like a fart in the wind.

The risks of teleport definitely offset the escape factor. I've only ever used it as a last ditch complete panic option but it has saved my ass a couple times and at the very least steals a pk from somebody if I feel like being a real dick.
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:16 pm    Post subject:

all of this just benefits the elite and hinders the newer players
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m1coftw



Joined: 05 May 2015
Posts: 265

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:23 pm    Post subject:

Make word of recall delayed and interruptable like gate.

While you are at it, add delay to reciting scrolls.

"You begin to recite a Medic Scroll...."
5seconds
You heal yourself.


Same with word of recall.
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Sevaush



Joined: 26 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:27 pm    Post subject:

Vevier: I don't get this "in character" reason thing. This is a fantasy game, there are so many ways to come up with a story that works as well as why recall even exists in the first place. For example, when the enemy attacks you, their gods interfers with your link to you own god and thus, it does not work accurately, so you can worded to a nearest temple instead of your original hometown. This is as good an "in character" reason as any other.

M1co: An alias to throw on 50 additional mental saves stops that. It takes 2 seconds to make it happen.

Divsky: I did think about portals, but there are many things to consider.

1. The chaser has to accurate pinpoint the word location which is highly unlikely for the chaser given it to be an instant cast spell (Not impossible, but it needs some sort of luck for that).

2. We need to consider who gets lag and who doesn't get lag for creating/entering the portal. Do we penalize the "runner" for getting caught? etc etc. I think nearest temple would circumvent all these additional considerations IMO. Whatever works for the players though.


Tayyah: I agree it steepens the learning curve as it is harder to escape if this is implemented. But I think we should consider overall gameplay rather than resisting the implementation to benefit new players in surviving.
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Sevaush



Joined: 26 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:30 pm    Post subject:

M1co: Do medic scrolls even exist these days? And let us stay on topic for now, you can create another topic on scroll delays because I disagree with adding lag for scrolls. If you're going to do that, might as well add lag for eating apples. Let's stay on topic for now. Thanks.
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m1coftw



Joined: 05 May 2015
Posts: 265

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:33 pm    Post subject:

Well the point was to add pre-delay to things such as word of recall in addition to gate, because it should take time to prepare not happen instantly.

I can spamquaff 10 potions and instantly pop around. Doesnt really make sense.


Add a cooldown and pre-delay and make it more of a tactical decision rather than ez way out
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Sevaush



Joined: 26 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:37 pm    Post subject:

I must say that adding pre-delay to word of recall is different from adding delays to scrolls and potions.

You can quaff 10 potions sure, what sort of potions? Red potions or recall potions, it does not matter because there is a small delay after each quaff, which amounts the same as a paladin spamming 10 cure serious. No delays for either and it makes sense.

I agree that pre-delay is a plausible solution to word of recall, but I disagree a pre-delay to potions and scrolls in general.
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Vanisse
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: inside a tree

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:46 pm    Post subject:

i suspect adding pre-delay to word of recall will result in a significant increase in winter deaths
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:52 pm    Post subject:

Good. Winter is too easy now with all these l33t pve classes.
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m1coftw



Joined: 05 May 2015
Posts: 265

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:50 pm    Post subject:

Potions should be instant, because you pretty much "quaff" them, which is like gulping em.

Scrolls take time to read, so delay before it takes effect makes sense.

Word of Recall after drinking the potion or casting it should have a pre-delay as it's such a huge action, actually praying to be transferred back to your temple. It should not be instant and should take your "focus".

Maybe even a cooldown for word of recall after using it, spamquaffing 100 potions at your temple looks stupid though you can do that it makes no sense. You should be granted a recall to your temple but not too often.

And yes, it makes Winter and other such deaths more often, but that would actually be a good thing. People would need to spend more time on tactics instead of plowing through it and wording if they screw up.

Word is such an easy way out from your mistakes.

Just make it more tactical, make people pay for consequences of bad decisions.
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beia



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 920
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:15 pm    Post subject:

I like the way Word of Recall works currently.

Gate should have a delay before it can be used again, maybe 24 hours in game. So that either gives the person fighting the Illusionist time to just gtfo or find the fucker before he can gate away again.
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Sevaush



Joined: 26 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:18 pm    Post subject:

Beia: Disagree on the 24hour delay on illusionist. Illusionist needs the utility of gate for initial dupe and combat mostly.
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Dogran
Immortal


Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 1794

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:59 pm    Post subject:

Link it to adrenaline
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Sevaush



Joined: 26 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:55 pm    Post subject:

M1co: A scroll that reads "armor" only takes 1sec to read. A scroll that has 490581 characters maybe needs 10mins. Same thing for potions. It depends on how large that potion bottle is. Chemical bottles are huge while perfume bottles are small.

Anyway, this story-telling/circumstances/situation spinning has no end. I think all you have to think is how instant reciting scrolls or having a 1 round lag pre-delay or 3rd lag post delay changes combat tactically. Personally, I think it is fine the way it is for these.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:22 am    Post subject:

we need more gangbanging not less. I'm against this. I don't like that you claimed having a friend go to someone's temple promotes OOC gangbanging. It promotes IC gangbanging. There is nothing whatsoever in word of recall that promotes any OOC activity, you are full of shit
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Vevier
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1642
Location: everywhere

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:38 am    Post subject:

I'm talking about the agreement we as the builders make to people who are playing the game. Yes, this is a fantasy world, yes we can say whatever we want, but we have a responsibility to make changes that fit and make sense. If your answer to "Why does this happen?" is "because the gods interfere" then that's absolutely unfair to the players. They have enough to learn without also having to learn all the arbitrary ways the gods are going to mess with their PK.

I know you think I'm blowing steam, but newbie chat gets flooded with new players being confused when we've stopped a spell from working the way we told them it would work.
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