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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 6 hours.

Proposed changes to escape spells
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ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
Posts: 163
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:10 am    Post subject:

The whole point if sevaush's idea is to make recall to nearest temple only applicable when you have pk adrenaline, ie. If your adrenaline is only active or calm, you can still recall normally to your home temple. The whole point of this is to balance out the pk scene and you will naturally see more action throughout the board. It doesnt make sense to keep counting on camping at the temple when the playerbase is already so small. And i certainly do not agree with promoting gangbang since it leaves a bad taste and affects the playerbase negatively.

Word of recall is simply too easy of a get out of jail free card. You can run to one end of the realms and recall, rinse and repeat. For the chaser, all the effort he put into tracking into the right areas and rooms just got poofed by this ridiculously effective strategy. If you make it such that both the chaser and runner words back to their temple in the same town if they word from the same area, continuity is sustained and the game would not be such a drag.
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Sevaush



Joined: 26 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:33 am    Post subject:

Vevier: We have a great system to update people have changes currently. Just need more patience, more explaining to the newbies and updating of helpfiles to reflect changes, I think things will be fine.

But whatever, as Nyc says, i'm full of shit. No point having this discussion then. I'm off the forum, do whatever you guys think is cool.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:57 am    Post subject:

so dramatic
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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:04 am    Post subject:

Take my advice don't suggest things Imms just make fun of you and call you names when you are trying to make a tired game exciting. Won't get you anything but frustration
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Nicolai



Joined: 27 Aug 2016
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:38 am    Post subject:

Without having been involved in any of this pvp action, I really agree with Ivindel's points.

I will also say, as a new player here, it's not very comforting to see imms say someone is full of shit, when they are posting ideas.
I don't know any backstore or history, but I think that imms should restrain themselves from comments like this. I'm sure there are imm-only channels where stuff like this can be vented, without players seeing it.
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Sevaush



Joined: 26 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:54 am    Post subject:

In return nyc, I'm going to say this. You are full of shit. Your answer to everything is gangbang. Why bother making changes to shadow if that is your answer?

When shadow was OP as fuck, just gank the shadow. So what if shadows have a haste, ghostwalk that cost low mana, global shadow spear etc etc. If you can't win 1v1, gank him. 5v1 if necessary. Who gives a shit that shadows are OP because "Gangbang" is the answer. No amount of OP beats a 6v1.

So please, change shadow back to the OP state. So yes, your gangbang point is full of shit because you guys nerf/buff classes.

Whatever dude.
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Lorne
Immortal


Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 456

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:04 am    Post subject:

OK, let's get a couple of things straight here. This is an ideas and suggestions subforum. Just because you have an idea you think is good, doesn't mean it is. All, yes all, of the senior Imm staff has more experience then you in implementation. So don't post here and start crying if you don't get full support/partial support of your ideas.

Second, although some of the Imms might be a bit harsh in their words in responding, I don't think Nyct is wrong in this matter. You related DIRECTLY that word of recall promotes OOC gangbanging. Like wtf?! Can you say that back to yourself and think it makes sense? I can't even respond to that, it's like saying furniture makes it harder to eat....and promotes OOC gangbanging. Don't just make up points to support your claim.

Your first idea of recalling to the nearest temple. That has already been brought up and refuted recently. That's not going to change, forget it.

Second part of word-gate, that has never been an issue. It's no different for anyone if they worded....ran a few areas...worded again...ran somewhere else. Gate has a large lag on it already. An ills main arsenal is the rinse and repeat, that what makes them so deadly. They'll just keep trying till they get favored. Each class has their own style. If you really want to deter all transportation spells, then a cooldown across the board can help.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:19 am    Post subject:

what are you talking about? I don't have anything to do with shadows

I'm sorry you didn't like the shadow updates, but they had just lost a very powerful skill that was core to the class for the entirety of this game's existence. That is going to need powerful compensation. People who play ninjas are also part of our community here. It's not unreasonable to give them some skills that might be overpowered and then tone them down. That approach leads to a more fun experience for everybody compared to releasing underpowered stuff and buffing it.

If you want a game with things in it like ninjas that wreck people then you're going to have to get wrecked by a ninja sometimes. Them's the breaks.

You should be gangbanging because you should have in-character relationships with other characters. Some of those people probably would jump in if someone was trying to murder you. Don't you think?
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ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
Posts: 163
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:08 am    Post subject:

Hah!! Restricting pk recall doesnt make sense? While allowing a system where any tom dick harry can just escape with ease makes perfect sense? and you think that this is healthy for this game? When active players make suggestions, it sucks when immortals turn a blind eye to them assuming that we are spouting rubbish. I believe that most people who are apposed to this suggestion are simply people who count on this ridiculous mechanism to stay alive.
Think about it. If you keep discounting the ideas/suggestions (sensible ones of course) of active players who make up the bulk of the playerbase, who are you improving the game for? Its really bad if you keep having this impression that we are out to ruin the game with all these suggestions without even considering them. Heck, we are the ones spending countless hours on this game. We are not trying ro sabotage this game. Just coz it limits your escape plan, doesnt mean that it is a bad idea. You need to be fair in your judgement sometimes when it comes to game balance. Sevaush is the number 1 rating illusionist player now and he is telling you that word gate needs to be nerfed at the expense of his character and yet you think he is full of shit for suggesting it. You really think that we did not think things through before suggesting anything?
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:58 am    Post subject:

it has to be hard to kill people or the game will be empty. We already have problems with players logging off when their enemies log in and players refusing to fight in groups. I'm getting mixed messages because we just got a suggestion in another thread asking for nonlethal tournaments on account of pk being too highly lethal.
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Vanisse
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: inside a tree

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:05 pm    Post subject:

let's not fling names and mud at each other please. it leaves a bad impression on all of us not just new players.

I think the important thing in this thread is that our players identify a challenge during pk and propose a solution in attempt to improve this game for everyone. that solution may not be the best one given implications beyond the pk scenario (for example: focusing to cast gate/heavens gate means you cannot be in battle at all during that warmup period. having the same on word would be a huge change in usage, but having a different mechanic would be inconsistent.)

seeing as the main problem described in op is the cheesy-feeling combination of word-gate. it seems a longer post-recall lag would make more sense than a pre-recall one, and/or you cannot gate from the temple premises. what is the argument for putting the lag on pre-recall exactly?


Last edited by Vanisse on Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Vanisse
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: inside a tree

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:10 pm    Post subject:

by the way the offending comment looks to be in reference specifically to the concept that word of recall promotes ooc, which is obviously not correct, not the whole thread of suggestions
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Olyn
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:11 pm    Post subject:

Criticize us all you want for carefully screening player ideas, but I can guarantee that our game is better off for not implementing every idea that has been popular on the forum.

There are definitely pros and cons to altering word of recall. Some of you pointed out with varying amounts accuracy that word of recall used to behave differently in/near certain towns. To clarify, attempting to recall from Valour, or an area adjacent to Valour, with adrenaline caused you to recall to Valour regardless of your hometown. This was done to "balance" the fact that recalling from Darkhaven was impossible, making more cabal pvp end in fatalities. Some of you have aptly pointed out that the desired result was more or less achieved. The problem with this mechanic was that a fundamental spell of the game was functioning in a manner that was unexpected and undesired in very specific situations, which seemed arbitrary / random to new players as well as some veterans. At best, those recall scenarios felt like a sloppy band-aid to me and simultaneously stole reliability in a spell which is designed to be extremely reliable.

I think there is a lot of value in this discussion. I've seen things that i like brought up. I'll weigh in a little later when i have a real keyboard available.
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Vanisse
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: inside a tree

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:23 pm    Post subject:

I had this random idea also, what if: if you have detect magic up, you can see hints of the direction in which a guy recalls by tracing the magical residues left behind.
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Sevaush



Joined: 26 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:07 pm    Post subject:

In the first place i have never said my ideas were awesome and it should be implemented. If majority of the guys rejects this idea, then yeah, it's not a good idea. So we have the first 10 post of people agreeing to this ( i dont care whether it is m1co or someone else replying, they all hold equal weight) "problem", we have nyc coming out and say I'm full of shit. Dude, we are all entitled to our own opinions but i dont come out and say you're full of shit for anything you say just because i dont agree to it. It's unhealthy for ANY discussion. But whatever, you guys are the boss anyway.

Lorne: "You related DIRECTLY that word of recall promotes OOC gangbanging. Like wtf?!"

No, I said if you are asking people to gangbang to deal with the problem that word of recall is a safety net it promotes gangbang. How does that not make sense? All I will do is to have an OOC friend to sit at the temple everytime I fight. Anyway, you guys disagree on this sure, so be it. I'm not going to bring this up again.

Lorne: "An ills main arsenal is the rinse and repeat, that what makes them so deadly. They'll just keep trying till they get favored."

And yet when you get favored, there is absolutely nothing you can do because they have L33t escape spells. So all you do is fight until they get favored and die with no chance of killing them in return. I mean if you are totally fine with this then yeah, I have no complains. I rest my case.

Vanisse: I don't need to know where he has worded to my dear. He has gone back to his hometown of which I'll probably already know where it is. Haha.

Anyway, tell you what. Please delete this topic and pretend it never happened. Thanks.


Last edited by Sevaush on Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:30 pm    Post subject:

lol. is this the same players that suggested this last time and just using different forum names? pretty sure this is the same argument that was brought up like 5 months ago. word of recall is fine. Ozaru you quit yesterday. so you should just quit and leave already. atop posting on the forums. just go already. or stop saying your leaving. no one cares anymore. you pull this shit every 3 months.
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Sevaush



Joined: 26 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:40 pm    Post subject:

As far as I know, word of recall didn't have a discussion. There was two post mentioning word of recall in passing which I have quoted it at the start of this topic made on Ozaru's topic on restricting areas. Was there a discussion 5 months ago that I was unaware of?
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:01 pm    Post subject:

http://abandonedrealms.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10331&highlight=word+recall

how about a 3 page discussion strictly on word of recall
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Vevier
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1642
Location: everywhere

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:18 pm    Post subject:

Sevaush, I understand that you're hopeful about how easy it will be for newbs to understand a change of that magnitude, but I was there when we had the change in the first place. When even one spell doesn't work the way players think they should (within the lore of our game) it makes a new player lose trust in the builders. Once they've lost the trust in us to provide a fair and balanced game, we've lost that player.

We cannot implement something into the game that requires explanation to newbies. Things need to work the way they are expected to work and a spell that works differently when you are under PK adrenaline does not fit those mechanics. PK adrenaline is primarily a META mechanic. It's intended to stop characters from logging out and to allow characters to use their skills without trouble when they don't have it. That's the AR equivalent of being able to "take 10" or "take 20" in a tabletop game. It's there to support the playerbase and it makes inherent sense that some skills don't work as well under pressure (like hide).

The changelist is meant to be an update for current players. You guys look at it to see if your issues have been addressed, to see if we've been making typo corrections or fixes to armor or updates to spells. New players see the changelist and they might become excited about some of the activity they've seen, or the tone of the changes and they'll jump in. We can't rely on the changelog to teach newbs a metamechanic because 1. they aren't going to remember the change and 2. the change is going to slip off the motd too fast to be any use.

BTW if you are using an OOC friend to sit at the temple, then you are in violation of out MULTIPLAY rules. You should be using an in-character friend to sit at your temple.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:50 pm    Post subject:

I disagree about hide, I think the adrenaline mechanics in hide are the worst. That skill is on the list of hard things to fix too

Sevaush, I think you need to relax and understand that my opinion doesn't actually hold more weight than yours does just because I'm an immortal. Changes don't get blocked just because I disagree with them. There have been changes made over my staunchest objections, even.

Saying stuff like "I will probably stop playing the game if you change this mechanic" sounds a little loaded but that's just me being a poor communicator. I am trying to convey that the proposed change of making word of recall less powerful causes a shift in gameplay incentives that will cause players to log out instead of skirmishing. It will turn no-kill fights into NO fights more often than it will turn no-kill fights into kill fights.

If you're going to argue with me we need to be talking about the content of the post not the tone of the way I said it. That's a waste of time and nobody cares.
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