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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:42 am    Post subject:

Who the hell heals at the priests? There's hella lag and $$$.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:10 am    Post subject:

if he out-eq'd you by a significant enough margin then that's what was supposed to happen
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:59 pm    Post subject:

Dav you're saying the berserker should only have to use rage/bodyslam but I should have to do every single thing right and then some in order to win? Combat advantage, foreign weapon advantage, take advantage of vuln, combat skills, "out-regenerate, out-potion, healing at the priests, etc" all that vs two commands? You wonder why someone might think it is unbalanced.

You may not like Burzuk's vision but he was making things more balanced. Like Nyc says, with a decent eq advantage he is supposed to win, just using simple tactics apparently. Who is going to have the best EQ? People who know where to find it, and people who know how to escape and keep it. Vets hands down. So being skilled at the game not only gives you the obvious advantage but also the added stat bonus from having the best EQ. And although that last part makes sense, how do you expect newbies to compete? Burzuk may have been killing gnats with hand grenades but he had the right idea in the long run. Brain over brawn.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:43 pm    Post subject:

Ottif, I don't think he was saying all a berserker would have to do is rage/bodyslam.

Please refer to the thread in the battlefield to discuss how we can help n00bs learn to pk.
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Olyn
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:25 pm    Post subject:

Rage/bodyslam is supposed to win if you stand there and take it, so don't. Run by a high level mob if you think your opponent stacked zerker frenzy on top of rage. Run around and catch ticks while you wait for his sanc to drop. Go invis if you think he's raged and doesn't already have detect up. There are tons of ways to beat berserkers who rage early, and I didn't even get into class-specific tactics.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:42 pm    Post subject:

ottif you left out the part "gear is the great equalizer" - maybe you think it shouldn't, but that is the way the game works. Brains over brawn doesn't mean you get to outplay someone using Winter gear and bodyslam. Sometimes there are fights that cannot be won. Lorne was a great example which you should really learn this lesson from. If he was less decked he would have stepped up his fighting and still beaten you anyway. Thats the reward of getting gear though, you get to coast along. Get a group
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:52 pm    Post subject:

I just noticed you keep going on about it as if I blame Burzuk for everything. I didn't blame Burzuk for everything. The fact of the matter is he hasn't been on the game in over 10 years. The last thing he said to us was to make no further changes ever. Imagine that! Some of us has grown a lot since then and some of us haven't.
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:56 am    Post subject:

You just noticed something that doesn't exist. To be frank I don't even know what you guys think Burzuk fudged up so badly to even say you're blaming him for. If I have all rares half from winter, and he has all rares all from winter, he should not win with rage/bodyslam when I am doing
[quote]
Combat advantage, foreign weapon advantage, take advantage of vuln, combat skills, "out-regenerate, out-potion, healing at the priests, etc" all that vs two commands?
[/quote]

Is this point being totally overlooked????? I'm saying brain beats brawn not brain = brawn. Brawn being the obvious, get a bunch of gear and spam two commands. And again I would have loved to duel Lorne but he just ignored me. In all fairness tho I def would have looted that ranger stetson. But when you duel a healer you almost certainly won't get to use rage which is 400 dmg a round. wonder why he never wanted to duel.

ps guess quote tag doesnt work anymore
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Sevaush



Joined: 26 Mar 2016
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:27 pm    Post subject:

Ozaru, to answer your question, the mobs has a chance to re-target when blinded, it is not guaranteed. I am not sure which mage class you are playing or fighting which mobs but i'll try to help you out.

Illusionist and necromancers are similar. They have two eq builds currently in the game, illusionist - Hp/hitroll or necromancers - hp/damroll.

Now, hitroll and damroll is not going to matter much in PVE. That means, if you're fighitng a mob with 600 max hp, u r going down really fast. If the you stack health, it makes it easy to absorb the damage. With all the spells up.

Try it someday, rack up about 900-1k hp and just spam rescue. It delays your damage taken and you get an extra atk round on your illusions. With a good mal break ring and flashfire, you can tank really long actually. It will work for both necromancer and illusionist. (illusionist will prob deal more dps a round, but necromancers should be able to tank better with greater mal spells)

Of course, please do not expect to solo those crazy ass mobs like the huge iron sword chieftain, it's not going to happen.

Hope this helps you in solo-ing.
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:38 pm    Post subject:

I think berserkers are in a really weird spot right now. They have really distinct weakness to certain classes like illusionist and necromancers, but they are really really strong against other fighter classes. Xenyar should be able to give a good review on berserkers since Krite was pretty dominating.

The biggest problem is the 2handed style vs dual wield. This is my biggest grip in the entire game. 2handed style is so weak. (both in warriors and monks) The raw damage output from berserkers will destroy you in 2handed style. There is nothing you can do in 2handed style. On top of that, a well played berserker can instantly keep you in combat for 4 rounds with a rage>warcry>bodyslam combo. 4 rounds in rage is crazy. If he obliterates you every round, it is 800hp instantly. You can't even outplay that shit.

Personally, I think Rage>warcry lag should be reduced a little for a chance to flee in between that before a bodyslam. It is too deadly otherwise.

2 handed really needs better bonus against dual wield. Like say improve parrying against dual wield. The raw damage from hitting you 8 times vs 4 times especially at the higher damage regime(from good eq) is too beneficial towards dual wield. Everyone is spamming dual wield murders. This is compounded by the rage bonus. 6 attacks from rage is no joke. It results in warriors having to go dual wield murders against a raging berserker and hope he does not rage initiate when you enter the room and kill you with bodyslams.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:48 pm    Post subject:

ottif:

ottif wrote:

If I have all rares half from winter, and he has all rares all from winter, he should not win with rage/bodyslam when I am doing :
Combat advantage, foreign weapon advantage, take advantage of vuln, combat skills, "out-regenerate, out-potion, healing at the priests, etc" all that vs two commands?

Is this point being totally overlooked????? I'm saying brain beats brawn not brain = brawn.


No I am not overlooking it. It is you who are overlooking shit. I will say it again.

I am actually looking at it with great disdain because, you see, its the very design of the game which is wrong. Do you see how several of those systems are complicated to apply. It would feel just great to a player if everything was very simple, wouldn't it? Or if you could deal with 1 complicated thing, and then the other things are simple. Maybe then you could actually learn from your experience. However, the game design you have pointed out shows that having multiple complicated things at once makes it appear that things happen at random chance and you don't learn why they worked when things go well.

People are so often sitting around blaming everything on the RNG and starting threads about newbies sucking after years of AR. Its because this gameplay is overly-complicated and that has fostered an environment in which there is always some stupid easy element we can point out to a player why, again, its HIS fault. (in this case, potions/consumables, but more often we'll blame the vuln or the eq gap) It is SOMEONE's fault, that's for sure. It also means this isnt very fun to play, at least until your gear gets crazy enough that it begins overwhelming other factors and restores the simplicity of the game of old.

You didn't even consider that your eq is significantly worse. But gear is by far the most significant factor of the game. YOU are overlooking THAT because you've been too busy trying to play rock paper scissors lizard pony dinosaur with your weapons. Despite all the effort, you were in an unwinnable fight. I am telling you that is the game design at fault okay. I'm not trivially blaming you - I know because you play this game that you are very smart. But its so complicated. We have a wider problem to handle here and we will, because our Immortals are a fantastic team and are also listening to everybody for feedback. Because of that, we are going to make AR great again.


Last edited by Davairus on Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:11 pm    Post subject:

Sorry for asking a noob question, but what's wrong with the Rock scissors paper combat system?

I thought it added flavour to the game. It could be a little more complicated which steepens the learning curve, but you know, flee murders gets boring after a while.

If the combat system gets refined to a really balanced state, wouldn't it be real fun to play?
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:17 pm    Post subject:

meriandox:

We dont have a rock papers scissors system. We have two of those systems trying to act independently while both being intimately tied to the wielded weapons. Couple that with punishing outcomes for fuck ups, like taking free hits and whatever. Its a bad experience if you're even doing well. So far I think we'll keep combat styles the same and address weapon type is the correct way forward for us but I dont want to do anything rash.
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ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
Posts: 163
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:34 pm    Post subject:

Well, to support Otiff's point about berserkers, please refer to this log for the duel between Ivendel and Krug.

http://abandonedrealms.com/logs/view_log.php?id=435

Ivendel's equipment was certainly much better than Krug's but that ridiculous rage, warcry, berserk combo is more than enough to take down 600+ hp in 3 rounds.
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:23 pm    Post subject:

Well I've tried to get my point across but it doesn't seem like you are willing to take the time to understand it, which is ironically my whole point!!! I never ignored the gear advantage, not a year ago w/e ago when I originally pointed the berserker design flaw, and not now. I think you can't see the forest for the trees, you are right on top of the code, code you are implementing baseds on your ideas and views on balance. However, and this is basic game dev 101 - if people are complaining about something there is SOMETHING to it. You may not agree, but people aren't coming to your game just to type things with reckless abandon. If someone who plays the game for fun and has some experience under the belt brings up a point, there is usually some validity in it even if you don't see it.

But I can't convince you, so I'll let the multitude of others who have pointed out the issues (both on this post, on my original post, and on the logs I posted) with berserkers try. Thanks at least for taking the time to respond to my posts, it is obvious you care. Now hopefully pride can go out the back door and we can work together to create a game that is more fair and balanced. Do this, the same unbiased and unattached perspective you have with Burzuk's change that leads you to feel he totally fucked the game (you and nyc have said it dozens of times) and undo/change his work without even considering it to be anything other than shit, you apply to your own changes. If you can look at changes YOU implement without getting attached and thinking they are the answer because you made them you'll have a game that is far more balanced than what is being created now.

Just judging the in game atmosphere of the game a year ago everyone could tell berserkers were way OP. Shitty berserker players like Cronnus easily hit the top 10 without much effort due to fury. Berserker legion jumped to the top spot without much effort or skill because there wasn't any required to gear up and rage/bodyslam.

All in all, you think the repeating about potions and regen will awaken me to some point I haven't taken into consideration, but someone else just pointed out the ridiculous lag they can bring after they rage and damage they can do even undergeared. You keep repeating how gear wins the day but someone else posted a log of how gear don't mean shit when you have easy mode berserkers. It is not just me pointing out the obvious and quite glaring design flaws of berserkers.
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Lorne
Immortal


Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 456

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:47 am    Post subject:

You're basically have berserkers>everything else. How come there isn't just 10 level 50 berserkers running around raging in malicious beasts and beating shit up all the time then?

I can appreciate the rage, warcry/maybe bodyslam after stun combo can be deadly at the right circumstance. But ONLY in a certain circumstances where you can kill your opponent in those couple rounds. But it's no different then an illithid using cone when your sanc drops. It only works if played right, and you can navigate around it. Saving your warcry until you rage is also a big hit on hitroll/saves.

I can tell most of you have...almost 0 experience actually playing a competent berserker because no one has even mentioned about the regeneration nerf which IMO is biggest change I had to deal with playing berserkers for over a decade. I had to change my whole tactic because of the trophies and by far makes playing a dominate berserker more challenging.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:58 am    Post subject:

ottif, we used to have hundreds of players at levels 10 through 25 playing the game constantly like AR was an arena deathmatch game. There was a huge wall around level 25 where you couldn't rank past it easily because of all the trash pkers. It was how people learned to fight. In these forums, there were posts where people were pledging to stand up against these guys and making little clans and shit in-game to try to fight the chaos and lawlessness. It was a giant part of the game, and it was how everybody here who is great at AR got their PK skills.

Burzuk made a change overnight without discussing it with anybody that nerfed your character more and more the more PKs you had under level 30. If you had 10 kills and you weren't level 30 yet, your damage would be reduced by 75% when in any PK

this change killed the game

that's the problem I had with Burzuk. That's it. I don't blame every gameplay mistake on Burzuk.

Burzuk happened to be the guy who did weapon type/style, and we happen to more or less know what's wrong with it because we've spent a lot of time thinking about it. We know what mistakes he made. That's it. We don't know how to fix them and we don't hate Burzuk and we don't blame him for all the gameplay ills in AR.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:16 am    Post subject:

and the real problem with weapon types/styles is that it is fun

it's kind of fun in a way to have this super complex unachievable system where you can get huge gains if you get everything right, but everybody always fucks it up. It's cool to have that random element and not be sure who will win a fight before it starts.

Before weapon type/style, warriors were severely underpowered. Players with badass warriors were some of the most respected players around here. Rangers kept going through rebalances because we couldn't get the pets right. They both got shat on by spellcasters and clerics. Now they can have skills that do crazy shit like hobble, and there is a mechanism for balancing those skills. We didn't have that before, they just had nothing instead.

If we just rip it out all we do is go back to the old problem, we haven't done anything positive all we've done is something negative. The work just generates more work. It's not really an option.

So what do you want us to do? Here is your chance, man.
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:57 am    Post subject:

" If I have all rares half from winter, and he has all rares all from winter, he should not win with rage/bodyslam when I am doing.

Combat advantage, foreign weapon advantage, take advantage of vuln, combat skills, "out-regenerate, out-potion, healing at the priests, etc" all that vs two commands?"

Ottif, let's be fair. It totally makes sense that he'll shit on you. Look at other games. World of Warcraft for example. If he has 300i level on you, he'll kill you with 1 button. Look at DOTA, if the guy is playing crystal maiden and makes 6 heart of torrasque and you have 6 null talisman/bracer, you lose. He'll auto atk you to death. What are you talking about?

Gear vs skill. Your gear has to be in a certain regime NEAR the guy. You don't expect living wood/mithril to stand against winter gear. It doesn't work that way. You need to close the gap and then make up that gap from skill. No amount of skill can help you when he's doubling your damage.
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:08 am    Post subject:

"I can appreciate the rage, warcry/maybe bodyslam after stun combo can be deadly at the right circumstance. But ONLY in a certain circumstances where you can kill your opponent in those couple rounds. But it's no different then an illithid using cone when your sanc drops. It only works if played right, and you can navigate around it. Saving your warcry until you rage is also a big hit on hitroll/saves. "

Lorne: There is a difference. Illithid using cone when sanc drops = your mistake because you gave him that window and did not watch your sanc timer. rage warcry/body is different. There is no counterplay. You can execute that by just allowing the opponent to murder you and BAM, you can do that combo. In one combo on shit eq, the raw damage can hit 600hp. That's too high a damage for an unpreventable combo.

Saves do not matter on non-cleric classes where this is an issue. Warcry gives 6 hitroll? That is not a huge penalty at all considering late game gears.

Regen nerf was huge, but bear trophy is really strong. The fact you can drop it during rage is another issue. If lucky, my friend's fire giant berserker actually gained 300hp a tick (Rarely happens but it does). But this is really not a big problem to me.

In summary, Rage Warcry/body combo gives too huge a damage combo that is UNPREVENTABLE and the damage is huge even in shit gear.
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