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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 11 hours.

Newbie PK development
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:21 am    Post subject: Newbie PK development

This game definitely has a steep learning curve and I think frustration at being wet noodles drives a lot of newer people from the game. It took me at least two years before I felt like I could hold my own in pk and I still haven't even come close to the pip/jeo/kato level of pk.

With that said, I wanted to brainstorm ideas on how we, the veterans, could help develop newbie pk talent so that the fresh blood doesn't get washed away in a stream of multi-kills.



(1) My first point would be to stress learning the map and running away. This has to be the foundation of any pk development. The great pk'ers know when a round isn't swinging their way and hit the reset button. Besides just telling newer peeps that they should learn the maps, I think we should make an active effort into helping them learn the game map.
(A) Make newbies lead groups. It may be frustrating to have them wander around the emerald forest cluelessly looking for nymphs. You may want to just blaze through everything. But if they seem lost, tell them to pay attention for a couple rounds and then take over.
(B) Show them some good escape routes. The importance of recall/nexus
(C) Make them walk the potion runs to Timaran. Show them the first time and have them walk back. Take them different routes to Timaran even if it may not be the most expedient

(2) Second I think would be to impress upon them the importance of sanc/buffs. They should never fight without sanc. Ever. Have them get in the habit of having their buffs up as much as possible. When ranking, maybe just have newer casters throw up their ward/prot shield every time you rest so they get in the habit. Like literally telling casters "put your weapon ward up" (sidebar)I don't even know where the hobgoblins are any more so if someone could show me that, I would appreciate it.

(3) Lag management. Newbies have so many awesome skills. All those l33t skillz will lag them and get them killed. I don't really know how would be the best way to go about teaching newbs how not to lag themselves to death.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:49 am    Post subject:

vets might have to agree to stop intentionally training the new blood wrong as a joke

ozaru and fireballer are somebody's fault imho
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Ceridwel
Immortal


Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 3385
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:03 am    Post subject:

I didn't know about combat/weapon style advantage on my first Knight (Jaqr) until like death #50. Corzen (Eloret's toon at the time) killed me so many times, then one time he said "I'll stay in defensive style the whole time" and I asked him what the hell he was talking about haha. Had no idea. We should build some newbie quests about this, for sure.
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DigitalText



Joined: 29 Jun 2016
Posts: 88

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:47 pm    Post subject:

Ergorion wrote:
(3) Lag management. Newbies have so many awesome skills. All those l33t skillz will lag them and get them killed. I don't really know how would be the best way to go about teaching newbs how not to lag themselves to death.


Dying is the deterrent against spamming commands in PvP or PvE. Lag consequence is something that is mainly self-taught. You can warn a newbie and even explain pulses or ticks...but experience takes them the rest of the way. That's what I think, anyway. I could be wrong.

This thread is as good a place to start as any though, where keeping newbies is concerned on those other points.
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:32 pm    Post subject:

I really think that it chalks up to a lack of one of two things. either the information or advantages are not readily available to be found. the website doesn't refer to it and the help files don't cover it. Things like training. there is no help files (nor should there be) that say hey get a scarecrow and a shit ton of small mobs to easily train defences. right there they are drastically disadvantaged to a vet in a pk situation. the other would be that the information is there but they don't know where to look. things like the world map or codex on the website. I really don't feel that brains has any relevance to this game because you have to be above average intelligence to even be attracted to the game in the first place. I feel that everyone who plays this from fireballer to ranix were all probably above average intellect. I've been working on a basics to advanced training techniques guide. I'm going to try to get it finished hopefully soon that will help some as well because let's face it. if you think killing someone like Lorne pimped out is hard. killing them with all your skills at 80% or lower is a joke. I've been thinking hard about this thread as well hopefully I can add more to this as well in the future.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:13 pm    Post subject:

I think we appropriately convey the impact of skill point increases. You start getting improvement messages right away, and know that it's tied to how often you use the skills. If you're exploring you'll encounter the scarecrow soon enough, and it's entirely feasible to practice skills without the scarecrow.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:38 pm    Post subject:

Ozaru, stay on topic. This thread is designed to brainstorm ways that those of us who feel competent at pk can help develop the future talent of AR. This is not a place to bitch about how the vets are uber l33t assholes or to toot your own horn.

Back on topic, I don't think having n00bs spend hours training is the right approach. This whole mindset of you have to have all your skills at 100% by level 25 I think is actually detrimental to the idea of pk and provides a smokescreen for what goes into pk'ing.

Tayyah makes a good point about the availability of information. I feel like a lot of time vets will equip a n00b so that they can help the group out but will do it so quickly the n00b will just know that he got a bunch of l33t living wood equipment and a fiery dagger. So:

(4) When equipping n00bs, make sure you explain what the equipment they're getting is doing. Where it's coming from. If they can kill the mobs on their own or if they should do it in a group. Let them know living wood will be good but there are better options for later. Mention winter. muwahaha
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:57 am    Post subject:

I guess we could make a second mudschool, a PK-oriented level 25 interactive library. We can discuss what to put in that, like articles on training or whatever.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:46 am    Post subject:

that doesn't sound like it would have return proportional to the effort involved
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Vevier
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1642
Location: everywhere

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:41 pm    Post subject:

I didn't feel like I had a strong PK character until Kewlin and Ophalina. I can pretty much point the finger at Rheloth (I think that's how it was spelled) for taking me the extra step. Every time Rheloth and Ophalina were online and hanging out, we'd agree to a duel and he'd wreck my face every time. Once, I took him to like 53% (best day ever).

Part of what made it so palatable to be destroyed every time was that there was no enmity associated with the loss. It was some Justice kinda stoically taking the opportunity to pommel some some mute chaotic who wasn't a criminal. If you want newbs to learn, take them under your wing and battle it out.

The best thing I think we can do for newbs is to expand the arena to include other terrains to make it more viable for some classes. Or roll a warlord so you can initiate duels with newbies anywhere.
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:47 pm    Post subject:

I like the terrains idea as I like the idea of being able to pay a small fee to the jugg in order to create different versions. versions like all water, npcs that are hostile until one player dies, atop a jungle where you have to use climb to move with some lag across most of the area, teams or open combat of more than 2 players, etc. I know this is a lot to add to the arena I think it would go well with the warlord tourney as well.
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Dogran
Immortal


Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 1794

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:58 am    Post subject:

Personally, I don't feel that people like Ozaru and Fireballer are some Vets fault. There are so many of us who ARE helpful. I mean hell, I have learned so much from so many different people. Even with my evil retard characters I had people like Pip actively trying to help me be better. It took a long time, because there is so much involved in learning to play a mud. Our class systems and battle systems are pretty complex for this day and ages gamer. I think more written guides would be the way to go. Find people who want to help out who are experts on any given classes and get tips from them and then write some guides? Maybe someone wants to take that on, I don't know. If I had the time I would offer to help out with that, but I really don't lol.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:20 am    Post subject:

I think the vets are helpful to a point. They'll get the newbies to a certain level and then back off. I think there are a few key concepts that are not being conveyed. Like, for an obvious example people shame opponents who quit out on the logboards and the forums. Are you teaching our intermediate players to just kill themselves on you every time they need to quit because you have stacked rares and/or they have to eat dinner with the family? I think some of our experienced players have done this in the past intentionally and it has paid off.

When you get them equipment are you teaching them about what hitroll and damroll are worth compared to armor class, hp, mana, etc, or are you just teaching them that this mob has a badass rare? Do they understand what armor class does, have they actually seen how hard it is to land saves vs someone with fat saves vs someone without? I think they don't understand most of these things.

Do our intermediate players understand that some race/class combos are intentionally more powerful than others? Do they understand why that is? Do you?

Sometimes you must gangbang an opponent and there is no alternative. Have you explained to them when this is and why it's the case?

Roleplay strongly influences how likely you are to be killed. When one of our regular village idiots outs his character again by saying something retarded in group chat or asking you to kill the turtle dragon with him, do you explain why you're fucking him up or do you just dunk him and laugh in the log?

But talking to some of these guys is like talking to a brick wall so idk if you can do any better. It's probably more fun to just point and laugh
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Dogran
Immortal


Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 1794

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:29 am    Post subject:

Sometimes it is hard. When I am playing actively I try to help anyone I can (Unless they are annoying) even if they are enemies. Not everyone is like that, but you are right. some people are just hard to deal with.
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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:07 am    Post subject:

Whatever impression you guys have of me its simply from the fact that I don't kiss davairus's ass like you Nadrin. You attained "vet" status by being carried as a Knight. Anyone and I mean anyone can become a knight leader because no one plays knights because most decent pkers don't want the pk restrictions. You have every healer paladin monk take you to winter, you get your elite equipment and then beat on the scrub legions that are their. Your two cabal leadership roles came at a time when legions were very weak. Great job feasting on mediocrity, with all my noobness I still killed your precious balan

My distaste and attitude for this game honestly came from the player base within. Many of you are online friends who work together. One thing that I have noticed over the years is "vet" players usually join the same cabal or if they happen to be in different cabals or even non-cabal, they just don't fight each other. And by vet players its the top 2 or 3 killers in the game.

A lot of players myself included play this game to literally ruin someones day and dominate a character that they made. I will share two of my personal favorites.

Nycoteria had a human dkn Herald, followed me to the fire ruler, summoned a charmie behind me (abuse of a spell) and trapped me in between the fire ruler and his charmie. Full loot, never expected a Herald to come after me and the reasoning was because I killed some noob level 50 goodie and I was evil. How would he know who I killed other than because he was an immortal or someone ooc talked about it because that person I killed wasn't around to tell him after the fact. So the target on my back wasn't because of who I killed simply because of my history.

My warlord half-elf ranger was killed and full looted by a human healer who lied in a duel. Imms didn't care his behavior was being "monitored." Ive been playing this game for about 20 years when you shit on and get shit on you get sour. The majority of people in my experience will do this because the pbase is small and the other players here don't play against the character they play against the player with all their bias's in hand. I can't tell you how many times I get a level 50 start to do well and then all of a sudden 3 legions show up to my 1 keeper where those 3 legions haven't played in months and all of a sudden no more knights play. Coincidence nah some guys just want to screw with someone. Unfortunately that attitude has driven so many people away you don't get anyone left.

When people say I am the new micro that shit makes me laugh, I don't know anything about micro except that he lives in estonia, if that is even true just makes me laugh even harder. Cheats like a mofo and apparently is pretty decent at this game. You guys even spell his name correctly with all that hate thrown his way. I just say micro.
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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:19 am    Post subject:

Now to be on topic, you are all wasting your time. You are trying to hook a player into learning this mud when a new player doesn't even know how to make a gyvel potion, let alone wear shield when someone wields a bow. My last pk character every single knight was obviously new and I doubt they are even playing. What you have left in this game are the remaining 10% of players from when this game was popular, easy to play and the player base was forced to learn the changes because I don't want to learn my way to the ranger guild on a new mud.

If you want to attract and keep new players you need to be honest with yourself and screen ip address to see how many new players are logging in, how many are staying to see if it is even worth the effort. It is a shame this game isn't global to attract players from all time zones so this place isn't empty. Nothing makes you feel like you are really wasting your time here when you log in at 1030PM and the place is empty or you log in during the Sunday 2pm surge and 2 people are on.
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Dogran
Immortal


Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 1794

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:27 am    Post subject:

That's simply not true. I created a character recently, after reading a post that druids were coming back, and I have interacted with three people who were clearly new. Did not know their way around, didn't know about a ton of basic things. It can't be chalked up to good rp either, because they even have noob speak.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:32 am    Post subject:

yeah there are a bunch of new players right now, I posted about it this weekend

wtf ozaru you just accused me of cheating

that is guaranteed to piss davairus off royally, you are like a broken record

I knew who you killed because you stole my kill, then you stripped buck ass naked in front of me what did you expect a dick sucking
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:42 am    Post subject:

Lol. I think let's stop this forum bashing. Both the imms and ozaru. Drop all those hate and start anew.

How about we create a newbies guide topic on the forum and then have a message to link them there when they answer on character creation that they are new to the game?

We create a core topics for vets to write and submit if they have the time. For example

1) basics of PK (that includes purple potions, where to get them, what do they do etc)
2) things to know as an illusionist or berserker or invoker (or class specific guides)

Etc etc

The imms can then have a core group of people to validate and approve these guides if they make sense and then new players can read these approved guides. I don't mind writing a few.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:07 am    Post subject:

I love teasing him, don't take it away from me
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