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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 13 hours.

Monk Defenses
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Thorgoth
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Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 727

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:46 pm    Post subject: Monk Defenses

So I've been kind of curious after reading through a lot of the log, which of course contain monks because they are unstoppable. Is there a way to overcome a monk's parry? Other classes who have parry can have their attempt broken, but it seems like monks are the only one who can't have their defenses broken at all (except hobble which doesn't seem to do much anyway), and that seems crazy insane since they can perma-heal or leopard style you to do.

Anyways, does anyone know if this is possible? Or do you think it should be an option?
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:31 pm    Post subject:

Are specific styles linked to weapon types? I feel like this would be a way to help mitigate parry.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:23 am    Post subject:

I considered making tiger/crane=blade, snake=segment etc and decided against it. They don't wear weapons. That's a class perk that is paid for by the inability to wear metals or heavy armor or whatever it was (I might be confusing it with druids).

What do you mean unstoppable? A lot of people don't seem to think so.
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Ceridwel
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Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 3385
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:06 am    Post subject:

IMHO monks are technically a very challenging class to play, what with the multitude of styles and managing tattoos and gear. Their Uber defenses balance this out well.
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:55 am    Post subject:

The trick is to keep them in combat style disadvantage. Which can be hard, cause swap a stance and good... but there is a price. They use their chii. Which is what you want. The less choose they have, the more they lose. If they aren't fully empowered. They lose second parry and can't activate iron body if they don't have enough yin chii. With lower yang chi they lose the weapon balance, which is what you want. Keep up with styles, fight then where they can't run off and heal, if they are focusing, bash,trip, bodyslam and it stops it. Monks are tough to play, but if you know how to play one, and how they work, you can beat them.
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ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
Posts: 163
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:40 am    Post subject:

L.O.L

If you are worrying about which style to use, you are playing a monk wrong Smile

Anyway, my opinion as a warrior player is this. If you do anything other than dual wield/murders against a monk who knows what he is doing, you are done for.

In the current state of things, there is nothing you can do about it except to roll a monk too Smile (crane wing tip technique blocks arrows bruh, suck it!)
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject:

"In the current state of things, there is nothing you can do about it except to roll a monk too"

you're full of shit. You're telling me a dk can't beat a good monk and a paladin can't beat an evil monk, that you can't steamroll them both with a necromancer, or jump them with a ninja, or whore a cabal power, or or or

it actually hurts the game when you guys make sweeping generalizations like that. You are telling Davairus you want him to nerf Monks into the ground. That's what you're saying in this thread. You're saying they are by far the most powerful class to the point where no other class can beat them except another monk. So obviously the only solution is to nerf them so hard you think they're balanced.

What will the class be like after we nerf them as much as Ivindel and Thorgoth are asking for?

There would be nothing left of it.

And all because you lost some fights against a monk with a warrior. One class. And btw this goes 100% contrary to everything else I've heard recently saying monks are pitifully weak against giants due to their phys resist.
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject:

with a fire giant warrior legion. I thought this fight was a joke. dual wielding maces and just spam bash regardless of what style they were in. I'd win. I was 8-0 against monks. out of those 8 fights. one was close. that's it. and it was against temur and the only reason it was close was because I was marked for war against the keepers. just wait until this wave of 15 new monks actually hit 50 and start fighting real fights.... see how this thread holds up
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:58 pm    Post subject:

Monks have ways to deal with every class but not really many vulnerabilities. What is a necro going to do when all his minions get sent out of the room and he just gets rolled around every time he tries to flee (I kinda forget how it works it has been a while)? Monks have the best defenses in the game, what would minions do anyway when they can't hit monks and you can't land any spells (saves and their ability to dodge spells?)... Something else I pointed out before but hopefully a mass of people saying it at once can get the class looked at. Nyc you just like cheesy op shit being in this game, so you doubling down here doesn't surprise me.
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:16 pm    Post subject:

monk has to to be in either monkey or phoenix to out right dodge a spell, or mitigate it with spell resistance. The monkey spell dodge chance probably does need to be check at, but if you're in monkey, you're not gonna be using crane to wing buffet the minions out of the room, cause its not a guaranteed chance to happen. Also, throw does not go through protective shield, which a necro should have up at all times. They should also be flying via fly scroll, so you'll have to spend chii to air thrash them down, then worry about tripping them. There are ways to combat monks, just people don't wanna look for them. Hell, for the longest time, giant berserkers were the monks biggest problem. And I think only one monk beat Lorne it was mostly by using panda and luck. Since I think Lorne raged while he was dual wielding so the monk kept combat style and was able to dodge, and it was also when iron body was a passive skill not an active like now.

And back to what Nyct said, a dkn should own a good aligned monk, and a paladin on an evil aligned, just by virtue of spells and their class mechanics. You can't nerve if they have unholy armor on them, which they should if they have a full set of armor. They have the protection spell, which is a decent damage mitigation via alignment. Enhanced damage with third attack makes it nice, and if the paladin is a knight he has a horse, same for dkn nightmare, so trip is out of the question. While yes monks have blind fighting, it won't help you if you're blinded then summoned and you're not sure where you are at. Also Dkn have curse and poison, poison is mean cause it hits the two biggest stats for monks in terms of damage and defense, strength and dex. So its doable, cause is a monk gonna use monkey/phoenix against a dkn? And a lot of saving gear beyond rings and necklaces and bracers are medium/heavy pieces of armor which will encumber a monk. And by the way, as far as I last checked, a breaking item is stronger for more saves that are used.
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject:

they need a nerf it is clear maybe not a huge one but it needs to happen and i didnt mention throw

Last edited by ottif on Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject:

I don't mind having monks carry a weakness to parry where it makes sense to, and in fact already have. We have that when they're in tiger style. The style adds a bunch of damroll, so I treated like a frenzy - and frenzies lower your own chance to parry.

Down the road, when we find time, there is room in the monk class for the weapons to be worn inside their fighting styles. The ground work on that is easy, because as you'll find out if you watch any kung fu movie ever, martial artists using weapons make exactly the same movements as martial arts that are bare-handed. So being in a style and wearing a weapon means it will do the exact same attacks as before. It also opens opportunities for monks to have skills that require weapons wielded (e.g. swinging on a staff to trip somebody, or hitting somebody with their sword as they unsheath it).

I didn't implement that is because I thought it would be confusing to players, e.g. tiger is a dual wielding style in AR by default and wearing a staff would not change that. So you would be fighting a guy who is dual wielding a staff somehow. I have enough bug reports
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ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
Posts: 163
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:59 pm    Post subject:

I think I said this before. As a monk, you only need two stances to win fights, leopard and crane. Your equipment configuration is simple, focus on damroll:hitroll ratio of about 2:1. You wanna go on the offensive, just go into crane (you get net 20 points at lvl 50 coz of +25/-5) and murder the shit out of the opponent (because every of your 3 attacks per round will go through with almost 50 hitroll), flee/heal when necessary, use flying scrolls. You wanna go on the defensive? Just stay in leopard. If ranking with a monk or running dungeons with them teaches us anything, it is that in leopard, they can tank practically anything, so you can stop dreaming about owning a monk in leopard with charmies/mobs.

The secret to playing monks, is to simply use these two styles. If you'd even consider using any of the other styles (offensive or panda for that matter), you are just shooting yourself in the foot. In the end, it's all a numbers game. Equipment matters which means that hitroll/damroll matters. If crane can net you free 20 points worth of stats while retaining the superior defences (parry, offhand parry, dodge, wingtip technique - come on! how can you categorize crane as a dual wielding style and allow it to dodge arrows?!?), beads gives you +10/+5 and +5 saves vs spell which is essentially like a warcry and a +5/+5 enchanted weapon.

I agree that the biggest problem to a monk is a giant berserker because only a giant berserker can dish out enough damage in the shortest time possible to mitigate the superior attack/defenses a monk has. Again, it's a numbers game, a berserker with high hitroll/damroll with mania/rage will get through those defences.

Tayyah just reiterated the point that I mentioned - "If you do anything other than dual wielding/murders against a monk who knows what he is doing, you are done for". Yep that's pretty much it, slugfest it out, murders for the win.
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:19 pm    Post subject:

Oh man, this unstoppable music that plays everytime I open this page is downright irritating!!!!! Can it be disabled?????
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:24 pm    Post subject:

'What is a necro going to do when all his minions get sent out of the room and he just gets rolled around every time he tries to flee (I kinda forget how it works it has been a while)?'

Btw Ottif, wing buffet is all and good. Have you seen it used or for that matter used it successfully yourself? If i'm a monk, i'll just tattoo monkey. The rest are IMO useless. Wing buffet if successful = Burning Ki for the necro to flee. collect pets and return. If unsucessful = well good luck eating two acid blasts or whatever the necro wants to do. Wing buffet just irritates people without much use. Same thing for throw. I flee and run a few rooms back to my pets. Not that difficult.
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject:

well, crane used to be a two-handed style. not sure why it was changed... but eh, and for leopard, could a deminishing return be implimented on it so the leopard evade takes a penalty to happen with each successful one until a hit happens?
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:37 pm    Post subject:

OMG please don't nerf monk tank, its really hard enough trying to get enough people to do shit I love that a monk and pretty much anything can go and take down all the hard bosses. This is coming from someone who has had 2 level 50 monks, and I don't ever plan on making another and those two are deleted. So I have zero benefit from saying this other than being able to group with one
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:38 pm    Post subject:

How about a diminishing return on pk adrenaline?
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:39 pm    Post subject:

And Tayyah, before this whole none sense about monks being great tanks, after the invoker rework, everyone had invokers tanking shit, cause of barrier/mana shield.
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:54 pm    Post subject:

I understand that, before that it was stone giant warriors were the go to for tanking shit, its progression I get it, but I just want you guys to name 1 monk that has came in and just destroyed people, and left in the top 5.... because honestly, I cant even think of one. I bet if you guys can pull some names up though, its going to be the same people that are in the top 5 right now, tearing people up, regardless of what race/class they play
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