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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 16 hours, 4 mins.

Some discussion of clerics

 
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:14 pm    Post subject: Some discussion of clerics

I would like to get some idea of peoples views on clerics. As you guys will no doubt already know i am trying to rebuild druids, a class that was in its heyday in 2002. 15 years and no druids seems a big deal to me so i want it to get done, but also done right. And for that i would like to see druids close to a traditonal cleric. However working on this is leading me to question some decisions that were made for AR.

If you look at a cleric at face value, what you see seems a very much a cross between a fighter and a mage. They have some of the best things from both worlds, and with healing in the mix, that is obviously very appealing to play. However i feel that in thr past this has been mangled into close to unrecognizeable. E.g. The removal of enhanced damage on the clerics got me feeling they are not really anywhere close to a fighter anymore, and their shield block gimp makes it feel even less so. In fact, they seem to have been punished into magehood for having useful supporting roles, they are not allowed to be too tanky or even deal decent damage it seems, thats the price of being a healing class and getting a lot out of catching ticks with it? Not to mention the dispel magic nerf. /players page shows these are the least played classes nowadays. Not that what they are is bad or unviable, but other classes are similar and much more fun. It seems to me that a specialization like shaman or healer would've just emphasized a better offense or better utility, without losing the core skills that gave clerics their huge appeal (enhanced damage was definitely one of these).

I dont have full faith in this view and It is stalling me on druids as i try to resolve it, so i would like to hear peoples thoughts. This thinking came up for me as i was tryingg to finalize druid staff and iterating through loads of clever but kludge-y ideas to get them wanting to go fighting without a shield. And At the end of the day if they hadnt been removed of enhanced damage i don't think I'd be worrying about it.

Your feedback is important and appreciated.
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:04 pm    Post subject:

Well, if you give them enhanced damage, healers would be terrifying. Use a staff, use spirit shield. Get amazing parry due to staff and get blocking due to spirit shield, and when you block you build divine power to then use holy word or castigate. The divine power mechanic makes this tricky for healers, but less so for shamans I feel.

I would like to see perhaps a more battle like healer as a spec, where they lose some of the supplications, like they can't cast prayer, stone skin, heal (so only up to cure critical), and some others, but gain the enhanced damage. Just an idea.

As for shamans, I liked what you and whoever was discussing in the irc channel about giving them things to help out stuff, like a candle and a circle to cast within.
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Trojal



Joined: 19 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:07 pm    Post subject:

I see fighter / caster / cleric as three distinct classes.

My opinion of each is:
A fighter specializes in preparation through equipment, and seeks to stay engaged in weapon-based combat with their foes.
A caster specializes in short-lived magical buffs and choosing the appropriate spells to expose an opponent's weaknesses.
A cleric specializes in defensive boon preparation and reducing his opponent's combat effectiveness, seeking to outlast the opponent.


I believe there has been significant power creep since druids were in game, and this may be complicating the balancing of druids and cleric classes. Since it's my opinion that cleric spells are lent more towards outlasting an opponent, there may have been power creep in equipment without a corresponding increase in spell/buff/debuff effectiveness.

Some aspects that affect power creep are:
Stacking damage bonuses, such as stacking wild weapon / two-handed weapon / unholy strength (dark-knight) or infuriate (berserker).
Random items exist that did not before, such as savebreak items, +hp items, or hit/dam items.
Sets and set item buffs that did not exist before.
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Olyn
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:11 pm    Post subject:

I'm probably in the minority, but I'd prefer cleric to be a class with skill/spell selection a combination of the cleric spec i.e. healer, shaman, druid, battle priest, etc and the deity chosen.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:13 pm    Post subject:

With healers spirit shield, I think the enhanced damage would not apply the same as if they were fighting in a two-handed fighting style, all they are doing is wearing a two-handed weapon. I think if someone is wearing a shield (even a pretend magic one), they shouldn't get the enhanced combat bonus of that fighting style. That is a weird case for sure but it seems like a very obviously defensive setup.
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:43 am    Post subject:

What about paladins who use a staff and a buckler?
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:45 am    Post subject:

Buckler doesn't affect fighting style and it has no hidden buffs or debuffs. It sacrifices hitroll for a corresponding increase in defense. The block rate can be tweaked for balance. If it's ever OP in two weapon style, the twf attack chance could be nerfed while wielding a buckler. I doubt that will ever be an issue. I don't remember if I even enabled buckler for dual-wield, it might be two-handed only.

It's a candidate skill for fighters and rangers, I don't see any reason they couldn't get it. I think it would be cool if druids were the only class that could use a buckler with a staff.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:21 am    Post subject:

Olyn, what are you getting at exactly?

OP:
"I'm probably in the minority, but I'd prefer cleric to be a class with skill/spell selection a combination of the cleric spec i.e. healer, shaman, druid, battle priest, etc and the deity chosen.
"

Potential interpretations:
1) "I'd prefer A cleric to be a class with skill/spell selection a combination of the cleric spec i.e. healer, shaman, druid, battle priest, etc and the deity chosen." (notice the addition of letter A as third word of sentence)

2) "I'd prefer A CLERIC CLASS with skill/spell selection a combination of the cleric spec i.e. healer, shaman, druid, battle priest, etc and the deity chosen."
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:38 pm    Post subject:

Shamans could use a buff I think they are whimps even against healers. Healers I think are fine and with the right gear can actually be kinda scary specially with holy word or w/e.
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Olyn
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:15 pm    Post subject:

I would like clerics to get a base set of skills/spells like mace, staff, second attack, cure light, etc.

Choice of spec, such as healer, shaman, druid grants additional skills/spells.

Choice of deity gives a few more, possibly in addition to the boons.

I have no preference if cleric is one class or healer/druid/shaman/whatever are all different classes.
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Kedaleam
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Joined: 25 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:39 am    Post subject:

Surprise, I know... But I like Olyn's thoughts. I don't know how all that would work on the building side of things however. That would be if you were going to go with a default cleric which seems like a TON of work, from the outside.

But really, I think just having three seperate classes is the best way, personally. And down the road, add in some sort of specs for each that might let them go more defensive/utility/offensive. As for something along the lines of druid staff, I view it similar to how ranger bow is. Maybe in certain situations, it's an easy go to, but towards end game, there will be a better way to use it. Druids could get some sort of perk while fighting with a staff? I'm too tired to think of much as for other ideas at the moment.
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Blyx Foulwing



Joined: 04 Dec 2015
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:52 pm    Post subject:

I agree with what Olyn said about the different specs, but for myself I'd like to see every class having a solid choice between 3 unique specs. You know Forsaken Lands got it right with Rangers. They had what, archery, beast master, and trapper. But these specs and deities should define the skill/spell lists. When you chose a spec you might not of gotten EVERYTHING on one spec that another had. So in agreement with Olyn, I'd be okay with cleric being one class, or throwing healer/shaman/druid as specs.

Other way I was thinking would be make the healers separate classes with their own specs. It wouldn't be difficult to come up with some specs for a healer, or a shaman, a druid, and even a cleric.

Specs specs specs!!
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Blyx Foulwing



Joined: 04 Dec 2015
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:30 am    Post subject:

Hope I didn't suck the life out of the thread Confused I understand that suggesting multiple specs can be a buttload of work, and that stuff like that generally comes further down the road.

I cannot remember much about druids alignment choices, were they strictly neutral? I seem to recall evil and good ones running amuck.. Anyhow, ever thought of removing alignment barriers for Shaman and Healer? That might not go with Serin lore, but you could expand skill/spell sets via deities depending upon which one you chose. And if the difference was large enough this could make for interesting customization for all alignments.

So perhaps you choose a Cleric, and have the choices of Druid, Healer, and Shaman and depending upon your alignment, deity, and race, those would determine your selections. This could make for interesting combinations for people going Lawful Neutral but following a True Neutral god, or Lawful Good, etc.

Maybe something like a pre-determined set of weapon skills depending upon which race you pick. And then somehow further build the presets via chosen alignment (healer - goody stuff, like heavens gate, access to divine power resource, heal). And finally deity to finalize boons and maybe a few select skills/spells.
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Blyx Foulwing



Joined: 04 Dec 2015
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject:

"Or" perhaps you choose a Cleric etc... didn't mean to put So. Those are two different ideas. It was my fat thumbs.
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