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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 4 hours.

revamping of thieves.
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asudan



Joined: 13 Apr 2014
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:05 am    Post subject: revamping of thieves.

I'm not dictating what you can or can not do with your mud. The point i'm trying to get across is that thieves are almost the same as they were fifteen years ago and it's actually the first class I made fifteen years ago. They are still what is left of original Abandoned Realms in my eyes as far as classes go. I'm not even going to touch point on the changing of areas. I have a difficult time accepting change of converting Abandoned Realms into a new learning experience. Maybe it's selfish, but I don't want to re-learn the mud I fell in love with so many years ago and that is what you lack the understanding of Davairus. I have not had major success with thieves, and the biggest blow to my mojo is losing what was AR and that is the understanding you lack coming from a fellow player, Ergorian. Been waiting 10 years now for the spear wrought of light to return........
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:21 am    Post subject:

we will bring back the spear wrought of light immediately

let's discuss thieves with you directly in this thread and exactly what specific changes (or reversions) you would like to see
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:35 am    Post subject:

I'll give Asudan a chance to respond first, but I'd love to pipe in on this thread with some ideas.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject:

This spear wrought of light is from an area I wrote myself, an area I didn't want to remove from the game, although I've since wrote better stuff. It was only my 1st area done alone. Actually, I was just morting when I wrote that, and I was banned from the builder port by a wizi imm in the middle of writing that area, literally for no reason. I had to wait months to be unbanned to finish the area. Obviously I had a very different experience. I was pumping out loads of caballed level 50s that you guys would all put into HoE easily nowadays and getting so much heat for every little thing I did. Its nice being a newbie thats all I got
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:07 am    Post subject:

well when you were doing it you accidentally made this guy's favorite weapon in the entire game and he has loved it for more than a decade

excellent job

do you want to try restoring faction of prayer? it looks like the area is about three quarters intact, but the resets are gone. Mobs and items seem completely intact, looks like exits might be as well
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Olyn
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject:

I would prefer we don't restore that area.

I'm okay with mining it for items, though.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:33 pm    Post subject:

I definitely don't like the catastrophic tone of the post. I feel like I'm responding against something that hasn't even happened yet. This comes over as some extreme negative thinking. There needs to be a balance between the negative and positive thinking here.

Personally, I stopped playing thieves the day that hide was fucked over by adrenaline for ten full minutes, it was plainly unacceptable to me. I had a level 40 100% everything halfling thief that I let inactive because I found it completely unplayable. I also thought clobber fails making you get hit for being in the wrong weaon type was odd and not fun to use. I think most thief old timer players would agree with me. Anyway, I would prefer to at least fix that than simply do nothing for another 15 years. It would be very dificult for me to do something as idiotic as that, but "nothing" definitely doesn't help.
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asudan



Joined: 13 Apr 2014
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:37 pm    Post subject:

I would agree that adrenaline is a huge downside to thieves. I personally play thieves as an annoyance to hoarders. Yes, they can deal good damage with dual backstab, but anyone intelligent enough will simply flee because of the lag from it and run off and rest up. Illusionists and necromancers do seem to pawn thieves easily with weapon ward, so gag would be a great addition and I do not see it as being overpowered, as again, anyone would simply run off from the lack of casting spells. I do recall from testing another mud on thieves and them being able to sleep while hidden, and it did not seem overpowered in any way. I do see it as a downfall to have to rest for 10 ticks hidden as opposed to being able to sleep while hidden. Going beyond thieves, it's a huge loss to have eq and weapons completely wiped or changed that were from the old days. Take the blackened bone for example, I'm curious as hell as to why it was changed to a skull-headed mace. I think it would be great to express exact changes you want for thieves and other classes before throwing them on the class. Would it be unfair to get opinions of detailed specs from the entire player base before anything is implemented?
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:46 am    Post subject:

Yeah actually, it's increasing the overhead to make a change. Committee consent is difficult to obtain. It's better to make the change, find out it sucks, then remove it. If we've made changes that suck we need to go back and un-suck them. It's not that big a deal as long as we haven't destroyed the content.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:00 am    Post subject:

Is this a discussion about thieves or about equipment? Maybe you could post in the nostalgia thread about renamed equipment.

The consistency of blackjack was fun too (extremely fucking fun, in my opinion, much more fun than actually pk'ing people) and now that's shat on by adrenaline also. I think youd have to be a joyless bastard to dislike seeing people of any level getting bj'ed.

I think we have a pretty good adrenaline replacement system live on shadows that I could probably port to thieves easily and provide relief. Note that I did say relief, I don't think it would bring the joy of bj's back by itself. People who are familiar with it can chime in if they want.
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:24 am    Post subject:

I personally thought the adrenaline change to thieves was a very positive one. Why should thieves have a get out of jail free card and yet they can strip you of your hardworked equipment instantly?

There should always be a risk involved in everything and blackjack and stealing should have it too. Otherwise i'll just log out whenever i sense a thief coming. That's unhealthy for the game.
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Dogran
Immortal


Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 1794

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:33 am    Post subject:

I think the adrenaline change should stay. Stealing should always leave a risk, as much as it pisses off everyone else.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:54 am    Post subject:

Its just like the assassinate argument on ninjas, the heals argument on healers. Class left boring and crap because it does one thing well
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:11 am    Post subject:

the adrenaline change was terrible and I bet it lost us a number of players you need two digits to measure

I say completely un-nerf blackjack, thieves are trash right now
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:26 am    Post subject:

I haven't seen Lourch fight so I don't know how he's in top 5, but I don't think there's been a really scary thief in a long while. It's also not that hard to give yourself adrenaline so you can penalize the thief before they even have a chance to sneak up on you.

I do feel like thieves are a littler underwhelming right now. There are a bunch of inactive level 50 thieves that I bet people have when they feel like trolling and just trying to blackjack a rando.
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:54 am    Post subject:

I'll just start with the current state of skills for now:

Envenom needs a rework. It has horrible timers, sometimes as little as one tick, and still doesn't land often or do much damage.

Tripwire appears broken. You can't leave the room after laying a tripwire, which vastly limits tactics with it.

Cheap shot really should be tied into kick instead of disarm to give thieves a direct damage option against spellcasters.

Hook shot could be a lot more useful.

As Ergorian stated, adrenaline is a two way street, and blackjack and such shouldn't be penalized for the opponent having adrenaline if the thief does not.

If this opens up further discussion, I'll weigh in with new ideas.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:45 am    Post subject:

My one beef with a lot of thief skills is they have hella lag and short duration.
edit-- eg: tripwire, disguise
edit2-- like, implementation lag to tick duration is a bad ratio

Tripwire is totes broken when you compare it with the help file. I've logged a bug about it.
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jaran
Immortal


Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 493
Location: Northern Ireland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:49 am    Post subject:

I used to hate thieves soo much, they were such a pain BUT that was the general idea plus it added real threat into the game which was great. I think they need a few tweaks to help them out as I haven't felt threatened or worried that a thief is about for a long time. Make them feared again and they will become more appealing to play and it will benefit everyone. Oh and those saying they would log out if theives might steal your stuff,lol.
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:57 am    Post subject:

Sure Jaran, I mean if you wish to stay about for a thief to steal your entire sack worth of gambled eq and saves to prove a point, be my guest. Lol. I'm not gonna hang around for that to happen.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:27 am    Post subject:

guy is like plz don't rework thieves and everybody starts reworking thieves lol
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