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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 9 hours.

revamping of thieves.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject:

wear your sack n00b. duh
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject:

Totally agree with Nyc here for a change. Revert thieves back completely. They are total whimps.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:18 pm    Post subject:

a revert would be really easy because I would literally just remove all the new skills, you stupid idiot. Read nycticora's OP.
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
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Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:18 pm    Post subject:

Yeah. A lot of the new skills are actually really good. They just need to be made to either work correctly, work better, or have increased functionality to breathe life into thieves.

One idea I had was for drug other (which works great as intended, so this is just opinion). But it would be cool if you bought recipes from alchemists and had to make your poisons. That way you could choose which drug to use, instead of the random chance you have now with zero components needed.
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Olyn
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:37 pm    Post subject:

I like that, grant.
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:45 am    Post subject:

revert blackjack not thieves all together
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:12 am    Post subject:

The old system was bad, bad enough that some people still think it was worse than now.

On the subject of stealth, as a whole, I'll say this. We should learn from the example of successful MOBAs who have been literally PLAGUED by terrible pvp stealth and they have figured out what works for them from the feedback of millions of gamers, iterating and experimenting. We are a text game not a MOBA but we will analyze and incorporate what works best. For example, a very expensive item you can just eat that lets you detect hidden until you die or log out. When that item costs enough money, its hilarious just seeing people buy it (especially multiple times)).

I think we have a good system on shadows. If a player does a "where pk" / "where" command and sees your <PK> on the output, that's how they get alerted. They get alerted just by seeing you. That's a better system for players becoming "alert" than what we had previously, it also lets you know you've been seen and that you won't be able to sneak up on them for a while. It prevents the spam of flee/blackjack just as well as the new adrenaline system is doing it. Its a much more realistic revealing mechanism. Another thing we have done is incorporate the light level of the room, so that if you see "the room brightens" you know someone with sneak walked in. Walking around hidden and two-handed has not been received so well I'd say, but it was true to the dnd roots. I think we willjust start from shadows and build on it.

I have a entire wiki page dedicated to a stealth rework and shadows have seen some of that. For instance, Nycticora and I have discussed making it possible to hide inside objects, not just inside city rooms. We have had a lot of discussion already about it. I will definitely put down anything good from here into my research notes for when the time is right to update it.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:17 am    Post subject:

Don't take too much inspiration from MOBAs and MMORPGs. They are failures. The mechanic you described of eating an expensive item to get detect hidden repulses me on a pretty low level. There's something about that kind of mechanic that just isn't right. You know what I mean? I can't really put my finger on it. It doesn't have teeth, it's missing lethality, it's training wheels. It's just not a fit for AR. I wish I could be more specific. You can overcome it with hours but you can't overcome it with intelligence. thk.

other stuff is good
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:05 am    Post subject:

We had consumable detect hidden for a little while, it was some level 5 eyeball and lasted very little time. Hard to find, worked fine. I just removed it to buff thieves. I don't really care about doing it but its just an example of SO many things that could've been tried instead of ass fucking it with adrenaline. and we shouldn't ignore the best ideas from around us and willfully avoid trying them because the rest of their game is bad. sure it is not the best game but many mudders play it instead of mudding so theyve gotten something right. i remember eve being reworked like ten times so I think teething problems trying to get stealth right is to be expected, we also have to be aware that this easily becomes one-sided fun and very frustrating, that was more what I meant to take away from those games, not just loot all their ideas. But things that worked and ended up not getting fucked with ever again.. thats probably something good. like the vision wards, never got changed ever. people got fucked because they simply didnt bother to buy them. consumables seems to be a pretty acceptable counter to stealth from what ive noticed. We have a home run waiting to be hit I believe
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Trojal



Joined: 19 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:29 am    Post subject:

I believe the essence of detect invisibility in MOBA games is that you can take a disadvantage (high gold cost, takes up 1/6 of your equipment slots) to gain the temporary advantage to see invisible units.

This theme is present in AR in items for detect invis with magic dust, where non-casters have to invest time to farm it in order to keep up detect invis.

This could also be an option for detect hidden, but it might not make the game more fun.
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Vevier
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:26 pm    Post subject:

I also don't like the idea of a detect hidden consumable. One of the things I hated/loved about fighting thieves was how important it was not to let them get away. I spent hours on this game wondering if Arunore was even still logged in or if it was safe to start fighting dragons. We don't need to even the playing field by offering everyone a counter to their ability.

I personally like rewarding seeing thieves on WHERE messing with their ability to hide from you. I don't know exactly how it works, but it would be cool if that just gave *you* a bonus to seeing them again on where or when they are in the same room as you. Give them a (spotted) tag instead of (hidden) or whatever.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:10 pm    Post subject:

You guys are beating down a strawman. Think of the children!

I would just have to say what is wrong with like, for instance, the "Summon" spell revealing a hidden player. If you are in the right area, and summoning, why should you still fail? Why don't we put our heads together and come up with something better so we dont need a stupid adrenaline system.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:24 pm    Post subject:

The new storm spells will mulch thieves if they're hiding without sanc in a bad place, those didn't used to exist. We could make walking into a room with wildfire hit you, too. Pixies exist now, removing adrenaline from hide would make them more viable. We could buff pixie dust to be a faerie fog like effect that doesn't cause aggro.

Didn't we give AoE skills to warriors and berserkers too? Need to make sure ranger can still do something like call lightning to bring thieves out of hiding. Might be worth checking earthquake for hidden nerfs.

I think we should give the poison spell it's DoT back instead of up front poison damage as well.

Grant also mentioned we need to make tripwire a proper room affect like wildfire so you can leave the room with the tripwire, this is important especially for thief vs thief and thief vs ninja. I think I will hotfix this.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:07 am    Post subject:

The way tripwire is now, you can set up your tripwire and leave the room. It has a hella short duration though. And the way the helpfile reads, you should be able to set up three different tripwires in three different rooms. This is not the case you can only set up one.

It also currently only activates when your target leaves the room. Not when they enter it. Which would be more effective if you have more than one like it's supposed to so that you can chain them together and get a couple free rounds.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:31 am    Post subject:

I need to understand exactly what is going on with tripwire before anything is changed with that because this should've came up when the skill change was posted months ago and didnt
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:16 pm    Post subject:

Dav, I still have an open issue marked critical from last July on this.
Here's how it works as far as I can tell.

You lay your tripwire. If someone walks through the room, it trips on their exit.
You can see it with detect hidden.
Therefore, if you leave the room and reenter after laying it, you can see that it's now gone.
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject:

Actually, I was really excited when I heard that changes were being made to thieves, and so I rolled one up. Spent a lot of time on the idea behind the character. Trained my ass off.

And then, when I posted feedback via issue, I kind of got shot down. Olyn did look into envenom for me, because it didn't work at all on tougher opponents after it was changed to a trickle effect. But it's still not fixed. I can envenom a dagger and have it wear off the next tick.

Tripwire is broken as stated above.
Hookshot requires you to give up stealth to use it, and can only be used to reach the Seringale rooftops. That's one of the most restrictive skills in the game.

Drug other is really cool. So is ambush.

But bottom line is, I was overall pretty disappointed with the changes and I didn't receive positive feedback through ISSUE, so I've just played sporadically on a character I really wanted to put a lot of time into.

I've kinda been waiting for this thread for a long time. Wanted to know if it was something the community would agree on.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:13 pm    Post subject:

Char movement clears their own tripwire. It just disappears. Movement that fails (bad direction) also clears it. It has a nonsensical 2 hour cooldown that doesn't make any sense. When the cooldown wears off, the thief generates a nonsense message to the room that says "Char rolls back his trip wire", but the message is meaningless.

It's just poorly coded.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:18 pm    Post subject:

Did you mean this? http://abandonedrealms.com/issues/view_issue.php?id=9169 Obviously, we need to respond and pay attention to critical issues. I will tackle that problem first (clearly WAY more important), and then we can worry about fixing tripwire.
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:27 pm    Post subject:

I logged them all in-game via issue.

Again, envenom was looked at by Olyn, but I think he only made changes to poison, and not the envenom timers themselves.

My comment about hookshot needing a rework was shot down with "That's your opinion, not an issue." But the way it works is that you have to be wielding a bow and move a couple rooms before you swing up to the rooftops. That negates stealth. So it's at this stage a wasted practice, unless it's reworked. I could have been more specific, but it was immediately closed at that point.

And tripwire was responded to asking for more info, but not worked on.

But I have ideas for new changes too if you want them. I've got a hefty amount of time on thieves both pre and post the new skills going in.
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