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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 17 hours.

Cleric weapon ward fix
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:59 pm    Post subject: Cleric weapon ward fix

First of all let me preface by stating that I am actually not looking to change weapon ward in any way, shape or form. I think it serves as a useful offensive skill for the mages which are an offensive choice. Rather I am looking to remove it from clerics because they don't need to be doing the extra damage (they heal) or the trouble of keeping it up.

Here is what I am actually proposing:

*weapon ward gone from clerics
*protective shield now stops all lag skills, overhead charge etc. If its blunt, which always includes lagging skills, prot shield will stop that
* being flying will prevent the hobble lag (instead of making it worse)

So lets look at this proposal in a bit more detail. It is very surgical as you might have noticed.

1) it makes fly very kind and that affects everyone. it makes it very nice to be an avian. there are flying counters but protective shield will stop that, and i believe you can also shield block charges from 2 handers (the most common kind of charge), so the counters are not brutal. the one thing I will say is that the potions people use to flight are easy to dispel so I'm not too worried about potion-based flight at all, especially as that interaction with dirt kick is not very ideal

2) with the lags moving to prot shield, do you really need to have ward up? I do not believe so. I think you will be worrying about sidesteps, as the damage is very high. I dont see it as stressful levelling mage/cleric (which it is) because you can probably maintain protective shield at all times. Some of our alhoon players can chime in here since they are currently levelling with slash vulns and will understand how that pressure cooker has an effect on ones brain better than I can explain here in short sentences.

3) barrage clerics will always be an option which means you will see clerics probably just using two handed weapons. The sideswipe is a lagging skill so going to bounce off prot shield, so two handed is very safe. This fits the clerics theme. We can strengthen the cleric shield block if we want.

4) disarm being opened against clerics especially allows you to deal burst to them with almost every character that can disarm. I think this is really good but it should be diifficult to disarm a staff.

i would appreciate everyones thoughts before I make this update. If we can do this, it will mean druids basically ready to go besides some binge coding!
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:06 am    Post subject:

You already know where I stand on this Dav, it fits rather thematically, and is quite a fun thing to hash out with you and everyone else that was talking about it. I feel like it fits quite thematically with how we differ clerics in AR vs the generic shield and hammer/mace from most D&D clerics.
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:03 am    Post subject:

It is ok but I think against berserkers and warriors that onslaught of damage especially from one in good gear is going to be a huge pita. Besides that a lesser aggravation is now clerics will be forced to train all their available weapons to max to even compete. I may be incorrect but isn't disarm based on weapon ward? That feedback damage is clutch too. Weapon wards seems to be here to protect these classes with much fewer weapon options and much less defense from having to swap out. Bards would get pwnt due to their lack of weapon types and their only real reply to that was four seasons, devil's dance, and maybe one or two other songs and all these songs have a catch.

It does seem to fit lore more for mages to have weapon ward exclusively but I'd suggest giving clerics something else to boost them up a bit if you are going to take this way because frankly clerics are fine if not a bit underpowered as is. You could try a spell to call divine favor on their shields which allows the shield not to be disarmed, adds a bit of hittroll, and strikes back at the foe based on certain weapon skills used. That spirit shield spell isn't worth a brown paper bag so maybe you can update it.
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:39 am    Post subject:

Then you don't know what spirit shield is good for. Spirit shield is amazing on healers, especially after after holy word and divine power being implemented again.
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:28 am    Post subject:

lol I do know what it is good for. But it is not worth recasting over and over in a fight especially when you can just get a really good shield with stats that is static. Andrael lemme see some logs of you kicking butt in pk with a healer using spirit shield. I'll wait.
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:49 am    Post subject:

Well, if you want to see mine, where's yours?
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:54 am    Post subject:

I'm just speaking from personal experience playing healers competitively I'd wager at a much higher PK rank than you(based on your reverence of spirit shield). You're being contrary and defending a single spell, so put your logs where your mouth is. You don't need logs to actually use the spell and try it yourself. I'm not saying the spell is useless completely but I'd surely opt not if I can avoid it every time.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:12 am    Post subject:

my take is that clerics will need shield block buffed back to normal levels because disarm will fuck them up
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ivindel



Joined: 20 Nov 2015
Posts: 163
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject:

If flying stops hobble lag, then it is a huge nerf to warriors, especially since everyone uses fly anyway simply because it is very important to conserve movement usage in pk. It makes a flying monk that much harder to fight as a warrior. If you intend to make it such that flying prevents hobble lag, perhaps you can compensate the change in some way. Lag skills are already weak as it is now with the diminishing returns in lag duration.
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Faelon
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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Location: Your moms house.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:13 pm    Post subject:

As someone who did play healers competitively, I can say that spirit shield is extraordinarily useful for PK.

Acid Staff. Spirit Shield. Wreck the world.

That is two handed damage, better parry, shield, and more difficult to disarm as it is two handed. Spirit shield maybe the most under utilized spell in a healers arsenal and it should be apart of any aggressively competitive healers arsenal.


On topic - I like the changes, though I do agree with Nyct about shield block.
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:50 pm    Post subject:

Lol believe that if you want to. You are wasting 100 mana for a very short duration. This could be why there are no healers with high PK ranking, you guys are actually relying on spirit shield thus getting no kills because you waste all your mana before you do any damage. Smh.
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kento
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Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 338

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:55 pm    Post subject:

Ottif, Faelon played an Executor of Valour healer who was badass and kicked ass, and was probably the most successful healer pker in the last decade.

I think this change is exciting, and would shake things up a bit across the board. I do agree that full shield block would be in order to ensure that the classes kept their survivability.
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:37 pm    Post subject:

Kento I played Trinne and Evaole. Both top PK rank. Trinne was still #1 when I deleted. Which I'm sure is easily enough done, just not with spirit shield.

Now if you cut the mana cost for spirit shield in half, we could be getting somewhere.

Casting a spell for 100 mana every 2 minutes just isn't practical for a healer imo. Take into account a couple of factors with spirit shield/staff:

1)A good healer should try and maintain somewhere around 10-12 spells depending how good you are at keeping up with it. This does not count accession or spirit shield. Even if you catch ticks you are still behind in mana.

2) If you do go staff/spirit shield you are pigeonholing yourself. If and when you do run out of mana, or get low 300-400 and you no longer want to use spirit shield, you're going to be without a shield until weapon ward falls, and you can switch over. And someone smart will capitalize, either fleeing to rest while you fiddle with weapons, or flee/murdering to take advantage of your now 1 defense while you wait out ward.

3) You do gain damage from a two hander but you lose the possible stats from a shield. 4 hitroll/damroll from a shield for a healer can be a huge deal with bless and accession

4) You open yourself up to timing fails. Everyone fucks up the timing sometimes and ends up in combat with a spell falling. Do you really want to open yourself up to just one more thing the other guy can capitalize on? And on top of that have one more item on your plate (as I mentioned like 12 spells up at a given time) to manage?

I think spirit shield was designed more as a spell bonus when you absolutely have to use a staff not as a primary option. I take this belief because spells meant to be kept up (ward, proshield, etc.) have rational mana costs. Things like boons, the accession spell, and spirit shield cost 100 mana. And spirit shield lasts a shorter time than the boons I chose or accession.

And not to take anything from the halfling executor a while back, but let's be honest a healer with medic scrolls (before the timer?) and defender potions and a mount etc. etc. is not really a fair comparison to most healers pking today.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:43 pm    Post subject:

It seems important to take into account the spirit shield block giving 50 dp leading to use for badass castigate damage (and if im not mistaken, mana free stream healing)
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:59 pm    Post subject:

ottif, you seem to not be understanding, that clerics are no longer going to get weapon ward. They are gonna get to swap weapons at the drop of a hat.
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:36 am    Post subject:

Mana free steam healing? Not sure what you mean. I never noticed castigate healing me or am I misunderstanding.

Is the damage from castigate really that badass btw? Checking a fight of a log with Weawin, castigate struck him 22 times, 15 were injures 6 were hits and 1 decimate. I love the spell but idk if it is a argument for spirit shield
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:46 am    Post subject:

Our discussion of game balance doesn't really need to extend into the formulas and numbers, btw. It should suffice to say 15 injures coming from a healer is quite a significant contribution, because they are a low damage class. We don't really need to get bogged down in the weeds with every detail of it. That's handled by the game design following its core design principles.
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:59 pm    Post subject:

If I had a dollar for every time you said show me the logs I'd never need to work again. I was just trying to help and pick the useful information out of the log rather than posting the whole thing.

An injure a round may add up, but it isn't badass damage. I understand healers are a low dps class but people still have more than 100 hp at level 50 so your 10 damage is the opposite of badass. It goes way more under the radar as insignificant damage (at the time at least) and adds up over time turning the tides of the battle. And it comes at the cost of DP, all of those injures don't measure up to one holy word or even half. Now holy word is badass damage, just badass in general and worth saving to blow that dp at the right moment. Castigate in my experience was much more useful in PvE.

If I'm derailing I apologize but I think some good discussion on healers is called for, we haven't had an informed discussion about healers since Burzuk nerfed them. And what about the mana free steam healing? Is that supposed to come from castigate, did I just miss it? cuz that would be badass.

To that point a random idea that might be nice is specialization for healers. A battle healer who can specialize in castigate healing, etc. And a defensive healer who is much more defensive and would have weapon ward and so on.
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Olyn
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:10 pm    Post subject:

We're trying to get away from cleric weapon ward entirely. Ward is very much a mage thing, and clerics having it is ties our hands in the ways we can improve and expand the class. They have the survivability necessary with the proposed change to make the lag skills (all bash/bludgeon dmg btw) blocked by prot shield, so I'd be surprised if some upcoming changes didn't help them on the offensive side of things.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:28 pm    Post subject:

ottif, some of the stuff you have posted is completely missing the point of the thread and you have not responded to these concerns. Like you're saying staff/spirit shield is weak because you have to keep weapon ward up. We're in a thread where we're debating how healers will look after its removal. I know you're way too smart for me to waste more of our time telling you that castigate/divine ret/staff avg dam adds up to a lot of outgoing damage from a class which is supposed to be low damage. Could you please stop slowing things down with these rehashed low-value discussions. We have much more important things to get on with like figuring out how to fix strike of faith/pain which is a very serious problem. At least read the thread properly first.
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