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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:30 am    Post subject:

found the problem, the codex doesn't have search by +attribute so you can't search for +wis items
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Lorne
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Joined: 20 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject:

It's not worth it to cancel out 5 wisdom from other items...that's not like -2 wis, you need multiple items to cancel out just for this one weapon? Pfft.

You can easily see the last person that have used it, I guarantee you its Varliv, and that's only cause he had the set. If you use it on every character you make, then you haven't made a character in years.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:47 am    Post subject:

I thought the green serpent tressed wig gave more wis than it does
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:03 am    Post subject:

What you have in vainglory is a really good mainhand weapon, in a readily obtainable spot, easily attained solo by any decent 50 (and probably lower). The kicker is that you have the wis restriction, so you end up choosing some other pieces in your gear to accomodate vainglory. People actually do the exact same thing with Treant Thews, which is much shittier because its -dex, but the set is more popular than gyvel potions. There are comparitively a lot of good rare items with +wis because its a stat any area writer can throw on their rares as a fluff stat on things and not need to worry too much. Is vainglory the best weapon in the game? Not sure anyone would say that. But if you put on a half-assed set of mid-levels rares without looking at what you wore, you'll probably have enough wis without trying. Its where you run into trying to wear it as part of a full perfect suit that the vainglory just fucks you, and thats the item being true to its name and thats on purpose. You could probable cheat and gamble a +4 wis item if thats available (I think so?). So yes, far as I am aware, it always had the -wis. To clarify, making sacrifices in the other gear you have to wear is balancing the items power and availability
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Lorne
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:34 am    Post subject:

Nobody uses it. That's all I'm saying.
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject:

lol you really just long winded said that vain glory sucks dav. oh it's good level 30 with all random Rares on because you will most likely cancel out the 5 wisdom by accident. buuut if you want that premo set vain glory won't work. you can't compare it to anything that has -dex because almost every single end game elite piece has either str or dex somewhere. the -5 wisdom absolutely is not new. by any stretch. but it's also not original. it got turned to -5 wisdom when ever sets were created and has sucked since.
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Olyn
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject:

AFAIK vainglory has always been -5 wis, including the original stock area.
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Faelon
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:11 pm    Post subject:

It has always been negative Wis, but the option existed to uncurse it or not. Also, negative wisdom didn't have as large an impact as it does now. I haven't found a reason to use it, primarily because unless you're using weapon ward, switching weapons quickly is paramount.

If the weapon could be uncursed, you'd watch it's use skyrocket.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:31 pm    Post subject:

I didn't say it sucks.. its a very good weapon and it also significantly increases the value of the WIS items and spells. What's wrong with that? I don't see everyone crying feeblemind is OP on the forums, its what -10 int -10 wis and lands like butter? Seems like nobody really thinks its that big of a deal. Not unless your goal in life was to train your stats to max and then suit up in the max possible hit/dam. Like reading this thread has made me want to go implement a bunch of more skills and spells that lower wis and int so you have to deal with it all the time and not just cause boohoo you have a vainglory? It literally is a wonderfully themed item.
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Faelon
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:36 pm    Post subject:

Cool, so I can run around with Vainglory and eventually the -5 Wis will go away? Cause that's what happens when I get hit with feeblemind.

Vainglory is a wonderful piece of themed equipment, that is now a part of Aude's description. Rarely a part of an inventory of an actual character.
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Lorne
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:11 pm    Post subject:

huh? How do you compare a spell that one class has with a mace? I can't even respond to that.

I guess we always had the -5wis, but before it was never no_uncurse and no_fade. So you can always uncurse it and the uber ones you looted were faded by an invoker and brought back to 4/4. I really considered vainglory one of the best weapons in the game in certain situations, definitely the best wrath weapon for non-goodies unless you got the 1 mace of disruption...which now isn't wrath anyways.

If the intention of this mace was to be only used with the uber rare set, then it's working, as no one would use it otherwise. I'm not even boohooing cuz I want to use it, I don't even have a character that can wield it. I'd just like it seen being utilized around like the good old days.
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Olyn
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:24 pm    Post subject:

I'm pretty sure I use it every time I regear a 50 that can use mace. Avg 24 magic damage on a weapon that's always in is outstanding until I get those top tier items.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:01 am    Post subject:

That wasnt the way things were, the way things were was it was the emerald sword of the 40's league, dependably capable of dealing an ass kicking and often around. Its never been the best weapon in the game. Its just GOOD. You can throw on a wig and a blue gem or whatever and be trash and dont care about the minor stats loss. Reason you'd see level 50 guys arent using the item is because you can get better items than that. Like I would probably prefer to the starfoil handmace ave 22. Anything with a higher ave than that should be obviously a rare item and if the game is to be balanced some drawbacks make sense if thats easy as fuck to get (which it is). Otherwise no shit we would all always be using vainglory. it wouldnt be around because everyone would want one

I'm for invokers being able to fade and enchant the vainglory though I dont see that making sense in lore because it has the curse of the witch wood on it (literally it is from one of the witches of the wood who are level 50). Its like the bitch ass sister of the hell-blades and spears, which can be uncursed, but are at like 20 levels lower item level. I dont know why you dont seem to appreciate that. Maybe we will rework the curse into something else but it seems like the big -wis is the thing that matters most still because its called VAINGLORY. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vainglory
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:09 am    Post subject:

vainglory is a dub and it seems like most of the experienced people have already stated that and why. I really can't think of a scenario where I'd want to sacrifice that much flexibility. even as a healer I wouldn't choose vainglory.
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Lorne
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Joined: 20 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:10 am    Post subject:

Everybody appreciates the lore, as stated before. That part is great, not contesting that. Doesn't change the fact that no one EVER uses this mace. I don't see why you don't seem to get that.

Again, wis was never as important before, or at least we didn't know it was as important. With it being fad-able, that could also be removed.

Like I said, if the intention was to nerf this mace to where it's only being used with the rare set, then it's being used as intended and we're good.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject:

oh wait a sec, are you saying the -5 wis goes away when you cast remove curse on it? I think this went over everyone's heads, you need to be explicit with this shit
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Lorne
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Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 456

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:49 am    Post subject:

No dude, you can't remove the curse. It's no_uncurse.

Before when you fade a weapon from enchanting, it would remove all the extra bonuses (negative or positive) from the weapon. So yes, the -5wis would go away before. But now it's no_fade, so that doesn't work.

Just your head Nyct, lol.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject:

no, I'm pretty sure nobody understood this is what you meant. Except Faelon I guess

that means that vainglory is now objectively FAR worse than it used to be. It's not arguable. Nobody would be arguing with that if they understood that part
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Lorne
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject:

That's not the only thing here.

-5 wis now is not the same as -5 wis before.

Noremove was probably awesome before, but now with weapon type combat, its more of a hindrance than a benefit.

So it's not a simple black and white that no_fade that has changed that made it shit.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:09 am    Post subject:

it's not the "uncurse" that removes it so it didn't make any sense, you have to fade it with enchant weapon to remove the -5 wis. I actually went in-game, stripped no_uncurse from the item, and tested it to see if casting remove curse on it removed the -5 wis.

That's what I mean when I say "you need to be explicit with this shit".

idk what to do about it though, the -5 wis is part of the item and the set it's part of is pretty cool.

why didn't we make disenchanting set items remove the item from the set? I remember there was a good reason but forgot what it was.
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