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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 13 hours.

Protection spell should be removed?
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Protection spell should be removed?
Yes
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
No
95%
 95%  [ 19 ]
Maybe
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 20

Author Message
Flyndance



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:03 am    Post subject: Protection spell should be removed?

Protection spell provides too much damage mitigation on top of sanctuary.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:26 am    Post subject:

I don't like this proposal because there were softer alternatives that could've easily been thought of, like, having less damage reduction, or even just reduced elemental damage, like I did with monk's iron body (which is without people demanding its removal). You've made it out to be like the only choice we have is just remove it. Really, it feels like you didn't even try. I know you can do better than this, and the carelessness of it definitely chaps my ass. If this were your game to run and I was making flippant "suggestions" to OUTRIGHT REMOVE SKILLS, what would you think? Seriously, are you blowing off steam because a shaman dunked you or something? This would be very harmful to the game balance and I hope it gets downvoted into oblivion. Again, you can do better.
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Flyndance



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject:

Totally agree with you Dav. I could have done better but typing long texts on my phone is not convenient for me. Just wanted to get an idea of the community's feeling towards how the protection spell works against characters of opposite align who are not paladins or dks that have divine might or unholy strength to mitigate the protection spell from same paladins or dks that already have high damage output and effective spells.
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Vertas



Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 1168
Location: Ewa Beach, HI

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject:

I think it's okay to revisit stuff if something is readily a broken or useless mechanic or if a class is obviously OP. I would say come back with a better argument and some numbers backing you up before coming up with ideas like this. If you can prove your point I'll back you, but I'm going to need something to get me there.
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Ty



Joined: 26 Jan 2017
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:38 pm    Post subject:

I like how you think, Vertas. "Show me evidence."
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Flyndance



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject:

I feel that the damage mitigation from the protection spell is a tad bit overwhelming. A normally MANGLE damage after applying sanctuary spell reduction would be around DISEMBOWEL. With further reduction from protection, it will go down to devastates. Let's look at the possible match-ups for paladins, dark-knights, shamans, and healers, assuming that the race is human that has no weaknesses or resistances:

1) Paladin vs evil-aligned classes that have no dispel- With already effective curative, afflictive and physical damage as a hybrid, I feel that the protection spell provides the paladin too much room for error when fighting such matchups. Imagine that you can only deal decimates/devastates to the paladin while he MUTILATES/DISEMBOWELS you every round which makes it a little distasteful.

2) Dark-knights vs good-aligned classes that have no dispel- The argument is similar to the above. DKs makes up for the lack of curative spells by having the right maledictive spells as part of their arsenal.

3) Healers and Shamans- I think the protection spell fits fine with the current meta for healers and shamans, since I feel that what they lack in the physical damage department can be compensated by the protection spell mitigation since they commune to their gods and have the closest connection to these evil/good deities. Hence, a protection spell that mitigates damage from the opposite align makes sense to me as a highest level form of protection you can attain from your evil/good aligned gods.

Possible solutions:
- Reduce the damage mitigation percentage from the protection spell. The drawback is that it will significantly weaken the cleric classes which is probably uncalled for.
- Remove the protection spell from Dark-knights and Paladins because they do not need the protection spell to be effective since they already have a superb arsenal at their disposal and the protection spell is just a tad bit overwhelming when any opposite-aligned classes face them in combat. The protection spell should only be available to clerics since they have the closest connection to their gods. In the current meta, DKs and Paladins have unholy strength and divine might that are designed to counter the effects of protection. The removal of the protection spell from them will not affect a DK vs paladin matchup, but instead will greatly improve the balance against other opposite-aligned classes.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject:

Paladins have protection because they are supposed to be strong against the forces of evil.

Healers have it because they are supposed to have a strong defense against evil.

Shamans have it because they are supposed to have a strong defense against good.

Dark Knights get it because they are supposed to be strong against the forces of good.


If these classes lost protection they wouldn't be able to tank mobs anymore. We already nerfed the fuck out of protection. It used to be that anyone could get protection from the jhyfrdow scroll or the potion in HTOS
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject:

wasn't it the dragon tower?
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Flyndance



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject:

How does it make sense when you are a fire giant warrior or an evil human ranger, berserker, thief & shadow with 50 damroll doing only decimates/devastates to a paladin when the paladin is disemboweling you through his melee attacks on top of the wrath damage? Not forgetting that the paladin have curative spells too.

It's not hard to validate my point, you can easily create dummy characters just to look at the kind of damage 50 damroll nets you against protection + sanctuary.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:28 pm    Post subject:

how doesn't it make sense that a paladin would smite evil? Do you think it should be a fight where both players have the same chance to win? Then why would anyone ever play a paladin, with a big fat target on his back? Because the paladin is strong, he is a target.

This is a multiplayer game. It's balanced for more than two players to be online simultaneously.
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Flyndance



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:33 pm    Post subject:

If that's the way you feel the game should be balanced, there is nothing much I can say.
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Olyn
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:15 pm    Post subject:

Don't take our word for it, look at the results of your poll.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:25 pm    Post subject:

Paladins also get hosed by neutrals. That awesome wrath damage is negligible and so is protection. It's not just a game of good v. Evil.
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Kedaleam
Immortal


Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:46 pm    Post subject:

Yeah. If you want to kill a pally, roll a neutral. Almost all their abilities cater to defeating evil. The only reason pally is on the leaderboard is the lack of any worthwhile evils at 50, along with no keepers, to keep them in check. It's just the pendulum. In a month or so it will be mostly evils again.
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject:

Flydance: Roll a lawful dark knight and then get back to us.
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Kedaleam
Immortal


Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:39 pm    Post subject:

+1
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Faelon
Emissary


Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Your moms house.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:25 am    Post subject:

It's more than that though. I'd wager you that if I got a stacked warrior, I could go against most stacked paladins. Dirt kick alone punishes a paladin so much. Couple that with the lack of weapon selection and you can beat a paladin.
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Flyndance



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject:

Doesn't it feel powerless, with 50 damroll, to be doing decimates/devastates to a dk or paladin when he is disemboweling you with the same damroll. If the way to balance this stark difference in damage (if even any of you feel that this is worth looking into) is truly to roll a neutral to fight a dk or paladin, then my point is void because you would genuinely feel that a dk or paladin with no racial weaknesses is supposed to shit on opposite aligned non-dk and non-paladin classes without dispel magic.

Anyway, when I started this poll, I had expected this result because this is an unconventional inquiry into a deeply-rooted mechanics which many have benefited from. I can understand that it feels good to be grinning with glee behind the keyboard while I out-damage my opponent by almost 2-fold while I fireball or wrath him to death. I truly do. Still, I think this discussion is a meaningful one to see how the community responds and what everyone's opinions are.

My opinion may not be the most popular one, but it isn't necessary the wrong one either. I don't expect most to share the same opinion as me, but it's still food for thought.
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject:

Poll results are bad because topic is total removal of protection.

Nyc: "We already nerfed the fuck out of protection. It used to be that anyone could get protection from the jhyfrdow scroll or the potion in HTOS"

How is this a nerf? You limit protection to a few classes compared to everybody having it making classes with protection more valuable having it. This is a buff in my opinion.
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Lorne
Immortal


Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 456

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject:

Never really been an issue with overpowered Pally's since they removed storm pallys way back. The really good pallys eventually become badasses when they're fully wintered out, but a medium rared neutral can still toe to toe with them pretty easily. I've never had any issues on any of my evil characters vs pallies, save for the ones played by elite vets. And it's more of a nuisance to fight.

Remember its not all about damage. Pallys have no lag attacks, only recently they had shield slam. If you die vs one its because you rolled the dice and lost. You really don't have to die to one if you don't want to.

Dkns have changed a bit more with bulwark but the same applies. They are obviously more versatile against your average stone warrior and able to hold their own quite well. But that's the perk of being evil.

If you remove protection from any of the classes that currently have one, they'd be easily steamrolled.
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