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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 7 hours.

Protection spell should be removed?
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Protection spell should be removed?
Yes
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
No
95%
 95%  [ 19 ]
Maybe
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 20

Author Message
grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject:

Your main concern seems to be the hybrids.

Opposite align warrior/berserker/ranger/monk: Outgear the hybrid. Play smart. Try to negate their advantages. Gang up on them. It's been proven time and time again you CAN win these matchups.

Opposite align thief/shadow/bard: Well here you have a bit more of an argument, but it's not impossible. These are the classes that are going to have to just be a LOT smarter than their opponent. They have to be conniving by trade, or friendly so that their friends are going to help.

This is all by design. It's good vs. neutral vs. evil vs. law vs. balance vs. chaos. It's rock/paper/scissors man. Not all matchups are equal. It would be almost impossible to create that level of balance. And then some guy is going to steamroll you anyway because he's just that much better than you are, so it isn't going to seem balanced.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:25 pm    Post subject:

I think we're all forgetting the late, great Fireballer's foolproof method of defeating paladins: just outdamage them and lag skills.
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:24 am    Post subject:

I'll share my 2 cents worth on this topic.

Grant:
Opposite align warrior/berserker/ranger/monk: Outgear the hybrid. Play smart. Try to negate their advantages. Gang up on them. It's been proven time and time again you CAN win these matchups.[quote]

Outgear the Hybrid: Small devastates damage on 50 damroll against a DK with no vulns. I'm not sure how much more outgear you can get. Show me you can get 50dam 30 hit with saves against a DK.

Play Smart: Not sure what that means. If you deal small devastates against a MASSACRE through sanc, you're pretty much fucked as a warrior. Unlike monks, you have no heals.

Gang up on them: Yeah, sure. You'll beat anyone and everyone in ganks. No need for balance based on this argument. With enough numbers, you can one round him. Nobody survives a good gang anyway.

My own opinion, I think it's difficult to balance protection properly. In races with vulnerabilities like jotuns, vampires etc etc, the protection is needed because the damage with epic gear and a good vuln weapon is pretty insane. Without vulnerabilities, the damage reduction from protection is very high that it becomes almost impossible for equal gear and skill warriors classes to win. Esp Dark knights due to unholy strength and fireball.

If you balance one side, the other side will suffer. That said, I think the damage reduction from protection is a little too high at the moment and it should be reduced slightly.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:14 am    Post subject:

i think he is trying to say pal/dk damage is too high but doesnt know how
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:50 am    Post subject:

the answer is to kill all dark knights before they become problems for you. Or just play one
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:34 am    Post subject:

I've been trying to think of a good way to answer your question, Merlandox. Unfortunately, it's gonna be a long one.

Honestly, I think there should be some sort of disclaimer during character creation. If you choose to be good or evil, you're making a serious commitment, just like if you were to be lawful.

As a good-aligned character, you're getting a whole group of people who won't kill you, free rares, and a reason to gangbang any evil character you want. Also, protection from the Knights if you're a noble.

In return, you just gave DK's and shamans an extra defense against you. (This is of course only one of the downsides, but it's the point of this thread)

It's already been stated that as a warrior, you're much more likely to be successful with a neutral alignment. You're also probably going to be more likely to be successful as a Warlord and maybe to a lesser extent, Justice or Keeper.

But, assuming you already know this and you willingly choose the uphill battle you're going to have against DK's as a Warrior-Knight, here are some tips:

-Try to choose a race that doesn't have a vulnerability. That's just gonna hurt worse.
- Come equipped. (You're probably going to get more mileage out of a magical weapon than a physical one in most cases. Always have detect invis. Stock up on healing potions. Lots of them. Use the hell out of flight. Have 2 sets of gear: Hit/dam AND saves)
- Try to catch them with sanc down.
- Try to run them out of mana. They don't have trance.
- Don't eat fireballs. No smart DK is going to fireball you next to some big ass mobs.
- You know those rooms you couldn't gate in or out of? Well, they can't summon in or out of them either.
- Skirmish. You have counter and fourth attack and dual wield. And it's a hell of a lot harder to land spells on a moving target.
- You're a goodie. Bring your friends.

Sure, this isn't going to necessarily even the fight. But it's smarter than standing there and face-tanking a class that you know has the upper hand on you in the rock-paper-scissors match. This game isn't meant to be 100% balanced 1-on-1 combat across all race/class/alignment/ethos combos. That argument is ridiculous in any multiplayer environment.

Personally, I'd never roll a good OR evil warrior, because they just don't have the versatility I like in a character. Also, if you're not a Warlord, you have to rely far too much on consumables, and that shit is tedious.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:39 am    Post subject:

Those tips are just a generic pk guide. The way to kill dks and shamans as a good aligned character is to be better at pk than they are or outgear them by a ridiculous margin or gangbang them. It sounds like you just need to get better at pk.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:44 am    Post subject:

nonono, outdamage and lag skills
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Flyndance



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:30 am    Post subject:

Merlandox, the good aligned warrior is meant to lose to a dk, assuming same pk skill and equipment levels. Why bother then, just gank, it's the solution to everything. Same for a evil aligned warrior against a paladin. The argument is void.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject:

It is the solution. The DK has the tools to survive the gank. It's an even fight. What's wrong with that?
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject:

The problem is this isn't so much your opinion as much as it is a severe misunderstanding of classes and game mechanics. This reminds me exactly of the other post asking why warriors don't get quick wield.
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject:

By this same nonsensical logic, a gnome thief with an ice dagger should be able to go toe-to-toe with a fire giant berserker with a club.

Wrong. A healer or bard, for instance in MOST cases isn't meant to go 1-on-1 with the biggest baddest warrior classes. They're a support role, because this is a multiplayer game.

If you're a warrior in the holy army of Valour, it would make sense that a paladin outranks you, unless you're just THAT damn good.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:16 pm    Post subject:

Both bard and healer can go 1v1 against anyone.

--edit-- there may be some classes that aren't suited to your play style. And you will get hosed. That does not mean they are not viable classes.
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Kornhole



Joined: 15 Aug 2012
Posts: 370
Location: Melbourne, Florida

PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:58 am    Post subject:

A gnome thief would know enough to blackjack and pry or steal the club. Just where my head went on that hypothetical.
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:52 am    Post subject:

And still get hulk smashed into cookie dough.
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Ty



Joined: 26 Jan 2017
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:13 am    Post subject:

Devil's advocate here...
Roll a gnome invoker and see how useless their barrier is.
Protection really isn't as big a deal as you're trying to make it out to be. The poll shows.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:08 pm    Post subject:

Why did gnome thief come into this? BTW, we could look into turning the protection spell into a 20% armor / save aff bonus, instead of its flat 20% damage reduction. This way, classes that use it would be scaling. I think right now it feels pretty strong because it just cuts all damage by a fifth outright. This means the worse your gear is, the more protection that the protection spell offers. Also, that's preferable over having a hp bonus because each hp point going further increases the value of each hp point healed. Its obviously a very strong asset in the cleric arsenal and works beautifully alongside the defensive bonuses those reduced hp/healing classes enjoy. I don't have problem with this as I like that those classes are less gear dependent but I think it could be nice to have some means of counter (we also don't need to introduce skills and spells that reduce armor and saves - we already have that). Of course 20% armor buff is nowhere near as good as 20% damage reduction unless AC is very high. The only immediate benefit of going this way is that things might feel less braindead. I would probably have gotten behind this if it was someone elses idea though.
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Flyndance



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:37 am    Post subject:

@Ty was talking about a gnome invoker and how useless barrier is on a gnome invoker, hah.

@Davairus: Thank you for sharing some numbers. Anyway, I feel that changing it (if it's even possible) into an armor buff is a huge nerf because I'd always felt that armor has diminishing returns the higher it goes, and it's bound to strike the nerves of everyone here.
Anyhow, in theory, perhaps changing the application of protection's 20% damage reduction to a multiplicative instance instead of an additive instance might be an option? Correct me if I am wrong to assume that protection's damage reduction is applied additively in the current state.
For example, a demolish (100 damage) gets reduced to 30 damage (base damage (100) - 50% (50) - 20% (20) = 30) in it's current additive state. If it's changed to a multiplicative instance, 100 damage will be reduced to 40 damage (base damage (100) x 0.5 x 0.8 = 40).
If we look at it from another perspective, changing it into a multiplicative instance is effectively reducing the effectiveness of protection by half when applied together with sanctuary (effective 20% protection down to 10%, see comparison between -70% vs -60%). However, if only protection is applied (in the absence of sanctuary), it will still retain the full 20% reduction it originally has. This way, protection can still be strong when used on its own (for those rounds when sanctuary drops) and will not be too OP when coupled together with sanctuary.
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:22 am    Post subject:

@Davairus: Gnome thief came into it because I was illustrating how mismatched certain race/class combos can be, and how they are not all created equal, especially in PK.

Flyndance had suggested that the game is set up so that an equally geared and equally skilled good aligned warrior cannot beat a dark knight. Obviously, the dark knight has some major advantages in this alignment matchup via protection, hence his poll to remove it.

The main point I'd like to make here is that variety is important, and it's not ALL about 1-v-1 PK.
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:16 am    Post subject:

^ yeah you're absolutely right grant. Please don't make a change. Protection is great as it is now! I'm still learning to deal with it. Thanks!
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