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[2018 Q1] monks , healing, and handling of movement loss
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:36 pm    Post subject: [2018 Q1] monks , healing, and handling of movement loss

I decided I will add a movement loss on the monk heal. This will obviously limit them from running around in the ford spamming heals, but I think its a good idea in general. The basis flows logically and naturally from the awareness that the physical process of processing injury is a psychological one (a meditation), and that means it will become harmful if it is overused too much. Its in a similar vein to how berserk reduces movement by changing mood as well.

For the balance patch, I'd like to consider whether we do this with ALL spells that cure hp's and let people worry about mv management. Obviously there is errantry, refresh spells, fly scrolls, invigorate that trivializes this for some classes. It doesnt stop someone running around the ford sleeping ticks forever. I've a feeling this may be the missing piece to bring better balance to clerics and let us restore enhanced damage back. Maybe we could go through every hp restoring spell and decide what sort of mv that ought to cost. In addition I think we must seriously consider adding cooldowns to any heal which is very strong.
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beia



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 920
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:51 pm    Post subject:

I can get on board with this. Healing really draws out fights and any class that does not have healing is at a huge disadvantage. Adding something that evens the playing field seems fair. That will make the healers/shaman/monks/Druids pick between being aggressive or defensive with healing.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:49 pm    Post subject:

I would be sad to see a mv cost on shaman heals
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beia



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 920
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:00 am    Post subject:

Also let’s not forget vampires healing abilities. So yeah of course Rainx going to be opposed to this! Look at the bigger picture man. It’s a shitty meta that has ruled this game for a long time.
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Kedaleam
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Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:16 am    Post subject:

Shaman has ruled the game? Crazy. I didn’t know that.

The trade off here is getting shaman enhanced damage back. Obviously there would have to be balance of how much moves is too much or too little.
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beia



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
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Location: Texas

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:27 am    Post subject:

No Mr Ked, the healing meta has ruled the game.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:18 am    Post subject:

I haven't used that name on this forum in like 10 years, you should not use it. It's extremely cringey when people use overly familiar names with people. I like you but you do not know me as that identity so I would strongly prefer that you not use it. Nyc is much better if you want a familiar name
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beia



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 920
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:21 pm    Post subject:

Regardless of what we call you, let’s stick to the topic and not make this about you.


I think if we added a higher cost for healing strictly in PVP it would work out. Leave things the way they are outside of PVP. Add maybe more MP cost and a slight MV cost for big heals. Your blood is rushing, it takes more focus to heal. Things like heal and cure critical would have 1 or 2 hour cooldown in game.
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Olyn
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:33 pm    Post subject:

Don't we already prevent our healing classes from using their biggest heal spell while taking damage?
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beia



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 920
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:49 pm    Post subject:

That is correct while taking damage you can’t cast heal. That’s why all you do is flee and move around a little bit, cast heal four times and you are full health.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:06 am    Post subject:

yeah actually this is totally right. the full-fledged healing classes ought to not have drawbacks when theyre healing. This works for monks since they have a lot of damage output as well
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beia



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
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Location: Texas

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:44 pm    Post subject:

Okay I don’t know what world your playing in but out of Monks, Druids, Shaman and Healers, monks do not have the most damage output. I have seen a shaman and healer out DPS a monk. Not sure about Druids 100% yet. It really depends on then situation though. Monk vs Warrior, the monk is going to appear to have much better damage output and the heals might be over the top. When you go monk vs shaman or healer, The monk finds himself on the lower end of DPS (because of saves) and the only thing keeping him in the battle is the heals.


In all of this let’s not get sidetracked and forget about shadow heals and vampire heals. Nefing monks will make them gimp when fighting anything that has healing.
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:12 pm    Post subject:

I don't think you are comparing the same shit beia. he has numbers and coding to look at. you have specific characters against specific characters in situations with static equipment and static combat. he is looking at the bigger picture. just because you see shit happen in very specific situations doesn't mean things are over powered or not balanced. it's called taking advantage. it's really getting old seeing you cry wolf every day you are lessening the impact of things that very well could need changing
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beia



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 920
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:34 pm    Post subject:

Pot meet Kettle. I won’t argue with code. This really is not a code issue it’s a gameplay/balance issue. All I am saying is if we are going to nerf healing might as well make it a blanket nerf for all healing not just monks. Healing is very important in PvP... Almost to important and that should be addressed. I’m not crying wolf, I’m simply offering my opinion as an active player. How about you try that rather than coming at me like you have a clue.

Also I have made it my goal to try to ensure stuff like the OP shadow buffs don’t happen again because when stuff like that comes down the pipes without testing, it has a major negative affect on the game. We are going in the right direction and I encourage you all to speak up and offer your opinion regardless if it conflicts with everyone else. You have a voice, use it.
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:11 pm    Post subject:

I don't know. The last monk I rolled up utilized tiger stance and patchwork horror. He did raging-zerker-level damage that no healer/shaman could compare with. No freaking way.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:33 am    Post subject:

if you think shamans and healers have higher damage output than monks you might need to get more sleep beia
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:54 am    Post subject:

They (the clerics) absolutely should have high damage output when the circumstances are right for it. At some point, the restoring of enhanced damage will occur and they will be much closer to other melee classes. The whole point of a cleric is to have some of the best of fighters stuff (i.e. predictable attacks, kick skill, and hardy defenses) along with utility spells that make them much safer to play. Its what gives the class its high-level appeal in fact. If you think about it, its dispel magic that is really a clerics achilees heel, not really low damage. But they are nowhere near able to execute the kind of devastating ganks a monk can do with the correct setup - throws, chakera strikes all over the place, grappling the nuts off people, very mobile. obviously that all needs to come with a cost and in this case its going to be including an addition of a movement cost to a healing spell.
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beia



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 920
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:42 am    Post subject:

How about evil monk vs Paladin with errantry? How would you expect a monk to tank that crazy dps, run for his life, heal to save himself all while wearing saves so he does not get wrathed to death. It’s going to be interesting when this update comes. Dav seems hell bent on this. Not sure why it was even posted for discussion if you had already made up your mind. I feel like we should consider another approach. Perhaps healing while in combat takes movement, healing out of combat does not. Something like that.
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Merlandox



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:07 am    Post subject:

Why would you wear saves just to lower wrath's damage? That is inefficient. It would be better to float your hp at a mid range to lower wrath's damage since it scales off current hp.

Paladins pummel all evils. The dps against a shaman is worse than a monk.


Anyway, why is dispel magic even an achilles heel? 120 saves and you're safe from your achilles heels...

Devastating ganks works across all classes. If you wish to compare ganking strength, shaman wouldn't necessary lose to a monk. Dispel bash with a warr, lethal. Dysentry curse and chase, lethal. I disagree that monks are more lethal than shamans. I can word and run all day against a monk if i wish to avoid the gank. In a gank, the most important is locking down your enemy because you are most probably gonna win the fight. I'll choose a warr/zerker over a monk because their damage output is way higher with similar lockdowns.
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grant



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:28 am    Post subject:

That's exactly why skills like abduct exist.
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