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[2018 Q4] Monk debuf
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Thorgoth
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Joined: 16 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:41 am    Post subject: [2018 Q4] Monk debuf

Monks seem a bit ridiculous and seem like they might need some debuffing.

Here are my reasons:

Leopard stance provides a riposte(ish) defense that seems to own all fighter classes. I fought one as a ranger and was still being hit for dismembers with barkskin pine (resistance to ice). Also, they receive a massive damage reduction with it which makes them beefy tanks all around. I've seen one do winter without sanc and that's just unreasonable.

All you need to do with a monk is stack high damrolll and go into crane/leopard. There is no reason to enter any other stance and that seems like a waste since all other classes require more thought / effort.

Healing is massive. They can heal for 150 HP when it maxes out and that's just one heal (no max since it requires only mana), most fighter classes get 150 - 250 HP for berserk / herb.

Monks have perma flight - keep popping crane and there's no limit to move, no other fighter class has that.

They have Physical resistance outside of panda style ???

This is just the start, if you want me to keep going I can. Either way, there should be some kind of reliance of chii for healing and a cooldown for stances.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:17 am    Post subject:

Before I dive into this, is there anybody else who would like to offer any support or disagreement?
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject:

I haven't played in a while, but last time I did play, I had a lot of similar concerns.

Heal got tweaked a little from the crazy OP it was at the beginning, but that's definitely something that is a huge balance issue.

Leopard was definitely the go to stance and I really did not use much else. I think this was back when iron body applied to offensive stances as well so now there's even less of a reason to use offensive stances.

Thorgoth, the one thing about pine skin and leopard stance is that I don't think all the leopard attacks are ice, I think there's a chance that some of them will be ice.

One additional point I have is their ability to pass door. I had one monk trapped in tyr unguld and he just popped on pass door and started running around healing behind all the mobs, and could do that infinitely.

One quick debuf to heal that I thought of is: have only certain styles be able to heal. I think the latest debuf to heal was that you could only heal in combat while in defensive style. That does nothing to the run several rooms away and heal, and if pip, the best tracker in the game, is saying that heal is OP, it clearly needs some limitations.

So my proposed heal debufs: (1) limit healing to limited styles, especially the ones that aren't getting enough use; panda/phoenix for defensive and snake/dragon for offensive; (2) you can only heal once the window for the special attacks has closed (so if you're in leopard you have to switch to panda, wait for a couple round cooldown and then deal with the slight windup for healing).

This would place monks a little bit more in line with their fighter counterparts in that if the monk chooses the styles without healing, they can still acupuncture (aka berserk) for immediate healing.
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Olyn
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject:

I noticed similar issues with a couple of the defensive stances being overused when fighting non-mages because nothing else seems to be as good.

Competent lvl 50 monk vs competent lvl 50 monk was a brutally boring contest that led to me abandoning my monk to play something else (admittedly that was shortly after monks reopened and I haven't played one since).

We got rid of light chii/dark chii at some point and combined into a single chii, didn't we? I wonder if some type of build-up/build-down in a defensive stance could require the monk to balance it out by using an offensive stance or something.

The rock/paper/scissors mechanic of the monk styles never felt necessary when deciding what to use, even vs warrior. We've talked about simplifying that system in a future balance patch, and that might be a good time to take a serious look at how monks fit into that.

I'm also not current enough to know the place that healing is in. It's a massive heal, but I think it's subject to the concentration mechanic that requires warmup and can't be attacked or move until it hits. Did we add a move drain to it? This might be okay or maybe only have it usable in defensive stances.

Crane could probably be a special type of fly that allows fly-based movement but doesn't decrease mv cost.

It always bothered me that the special motion detect thing that monks get is perm and doesn't require manual usage like every other similar skill in the game.
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Kedaleam
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:37 pm    Post subject:

I believe the healing is in an okay place now. It costs both mana and moves and you can't spam it nearly as much as you could before. And there is a delay, so any reliable tracker can typically initiate before it goes off.

You only fly in crane style while it's active is going. It's not permanent just being in the stance. So if you want to keep flying you need to re-activate it again, which will slow you down.

They can't astral walk endlessly anymore so their pass door isn't an issue, if I recall.

Asking for a cooldown on stances is a bit much, imo at least until we ever remove the weapon/combat advantages. It does cost chii to activate stances, if you never get your form proc.

People don't seem to realize the "Actives" of the styles. I think a lot of people don't utilize monks the way they could with them.



My thoughts would be: Take away either martial arts A or kickboxing A while in a defensive style. So they can still tank if they want, but they wont do the damage they currently do. You might see your tiger/mantis/snake styles more often with a change like that. Maybe increase the chii cost to activate styles. But I really don't think they are in a terrible place at the moment, in all honesty.
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Faelon
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:22 pm    Post subject:

I play monks, a lot. The reason? They can pretty much tank anything in the game, so long as it isn't magic damage. Right now, forming a group to go into the deep parts of winter is pretty difficult, so having a monk can make this easier for a group of two to go adventuring.

I'll comment on a few of the points above.

Perma-fly: Crane stance uses chii and has a lag associated with it's use. You can get maybe three rounds of flight, then you have to crane again. It slows you down and is kid useless. It's only ever really useful to do that if you don't have a boat. As mentioned, it uses chii, at a certain point you run out, so you meditate or fight to regain it. Considering monks have the ability to use scrolls, a much more reliable and less time consuming method of flight, I don't see this as an issue.

Astral walk: Astral walk requires your blood to be calmed, if you took that long to find the monk, they were probably going to be healed anyway. Not a dig, but that's as of the most recent update to astral.

Healing: Monks cannot use healing effectively in PK, if they don't have combat style superiority. Also, the stance passive (ice,magic,slash) do not proc, if they don't either a) re-enter the stance, or b) have combat style in during a fight, which needs to proc, which is random.

Delving into Thorgoth's specifics: I fought warriors and hybrids and got wrekt, in combat superiority with them just dual wielding magic weapons. Didn't do anything else but that and they ate me up.

Monks have a HUGE weakness right now, and that is that offensive styles are garbage and only two of the defensive styles are useful; crane and leopard.

Healing is already nerfed WAY harder then most people realize. Fighting recently, I couldn't get off healing however hard I tried, unless I lost tracking. In combat, it's random at best to get, and again, only if I can keep combat superiority. However, if I switch to panda/drunken, I take more damage then it's worth to get random proc to heal. Not to mention, healing isn't free even if you get the random proc to heal, it now has a mana cost associated with it. Considering that monks need to meditate to regain mana, period, a monk can be drained quite quickly if you are dishing out damage.


Physical resistance: Monks ONLY have physical resistance (not magic) in defensive styles. Offensive styles, again the most useless thing around, have no damage mitigation in anyway.

Offensive and Defensive chii: It's still a thing. If you don't have enough defensive chii, you can't heal.

Honestly, Thorgoth, your complaint seems like you got burned and your upset about it. I get that, but based upon all of your complaints, it's clear you don't understand monks mechanics. Stack damage and hit? Obviously, pretty much like any warrior class going against another warrior class. Try stacking damage and hit against a decently geared illusionist, or shaman on a monk. You will die, fast.

If you want to beat a monk as a warrior/hybrid: Get two magic damage weapons, one for either hand, and attack them.


Honestly, monks can't close for anything. That's their largest weakness and I think it is a pretty good one. Grapple is meh, unless your timing is perfect and trip is nice, but the same timing for usefulness is required. Air thrash uses god damn near all your chii, which in turn makes it one of the more difficult skills to train in the hybrid warrior world, so getting it to pop consistently is rare. Chii bolt is very useful, but you have to save your chii builds (while also being in style superiority to build it) and pray to god you only have two at the right time and that a third doesn't pop up when you want to use it to lag an opponent.


tldr; Monks are more difficult to effectively pk then people realize. They require pretty extensive training and due to this, most people don't play them in the late game well, which in turn leads to a lot of information about monks that is totally inaccurate.

Gimping defensive styles will make monks sort of useless in my opinion, without a counter buff to offensive styles, which as mentioned, are totally useless.
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Faelon
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:33 pm    Post subject:

A few other things:

My bonafides: I've spent probably seven hundred hours playing monks since the change.

Equipment and weapons: One of the most limited equipped classes in the game. Versatility doesn't exist with this class. Weapon damage types are limited to proc'ing styles either manually, or automatically in combat with style superiority. You know how difficult it is fighting a squid on a monk? They use their hands and so you don't get an automatic proc for chii (healing/weapon damage changes) at all. Not an exaggeration, it can't happen, because of the way monk mechanics are set up.
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Nycticora



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:13 pm    Post subject:

thanks for the writeup Faelon, very helpful
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:23 pm    Post subject:

I am with Faelon, I didnt read all of his post as its a story and a half, but from my experience both as a monk and fighting a monk, I was actually really surprised they had healing nerfed when they did as I thought they were underpowered... if you come at them the right way monks can be beaten by almost anyone. Their strength is purely PVE and the downsides can be heavily exploited
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:16 pm    Post subject:

I’m with Faelon too, I didn’t read what he wrote but I totally agree with what’s there.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:37 pm    Post subject:

its obviously a lot to read and there are some good points being made on both sides, which is making it unclear whats really up. The only thing I can add right away without a lot of thought is that I had wanted snake style to be the most commonly used
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Thorgoth
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:38 pm    Post subject:

Ok, ok. Faelon, you obviously have experience with monks and make some good points. You obviously care about them or else you wouldn't have dedicated the time to writing that post so thanks for investing that time.

Anyhow - here's my two cents as I, too, have dabbled in the world of monks.

Barkskin Resistance: when styles proc, the attacks gain a bonus attack type. Leopard is ice and it still seems to be bypassing barkskin, wouldn't mind doing more investigation on this to triple confirm.

Perma-fly: It looks like I got a little hasty with my words in the use of the "permanent". Let me explain. It is because it's a skill and can be popped whenever, wherever. Also, let's face it, chii is easily regenerated and not that hard to replenish given that stance forms regenerate it quicker. It also sounds like you are using the crane stance flight differently than me. The buff lasts long enough to sprint about 12 rooms on average and can be toggled when hitting high reduction sector types like mountains and sand. This is excellent because you can keep your moves high in PVP and save them for when it's time to make the chase. We are in agreement that in times of escape it's best to use a flight potion because you can focus on running and not lagging yourself to gain flight.

Astral walk: wasn't my point to make, didn't really have an issue with this.

Healing: (deep breath) Can be popped when chii is fully engaged for no mana cost, which builds on stance procs and happen more than most people think. Really wanna save mana? Throw monkey stance and watch the procs engage.

You comment about losing your opponent when healing, but let's face it, you aren't healing if you are hunting because you don't need to. Smart players don't track to kill if they are near death because tables can quickly turn and your prey can easily be luring you to death due to the reason I make next.

The pursuant can be the predator: When you're running, you can duck and dodge long enough to endure the minimal time it takes to engage healing and keep running. Lure your tracker correctly and you can trap them after some heals, or if you are fighting someone smart enough they will pick up on what you are doing and can be healed enough to pursue them and hit them when weak because most people will let buffs drop when tracking.

Foe wearing magic weapons? Pop monkey stance. You throw up insane magic resistance and even reduce you chance nearly 70% of dodging spells being cast at you (I fought many monks with mage classes and monkey stance always). Oh yeah, dirt/disarm anyone? Yeah, they have that too.

I disagree about hit/damage comment. Warrior/Rangers need to be balanced in both areas and often need more hitroll to than damage as it plays a roll in parry, bypassing defenses and actually landing a blow. I'd even dare say that monks are more at an advantage because you can stack more 4 dam eq, fill 4 slots for saves and pop crane stance to be able to crush mage casters (let's not forget about the aforementioned comment about monkey stance)

You make a comment about grapple/trip but you have a bolt that lags and only has a one round cooldown. (pretty much unblockable lag) Sure it generates on style proc but a mastered stance procs often, especially with combat superiority.

These are all just observations from being on both sides of the fence. If you're worried about me being "burned", that happened a couple of years ago on an invoker so I made monks to test it out. Now I'm at a point where I played monks, played non-monks and have thought about it over time.

That's all for now, I'm tired of typing Smile


Last edited by Thorgoth on Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Faelon
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:57 pm    Post subject:

I'll post more later, but the healing statement is wrong.

Three chii builds and heal has no lag (only in combat), but still has a 30 Mana cost. That was changed recently.

As far as monkey, it is sometimes useful but mostly not. The only class it's useful against is necromancer for consistent style advantage to proc chii, because they use a two handed weapon. It's neat as a closer, but attacking a necromancer in monkey will get you killed. Not the mention that monkey is defensive, so you won't be in advantage at all against the aforementioned dual wilding. So now, your magic resistance lasts for a short time, won't proc again automatically, forcing you to manually set it in combat, removing tertiary skill use.
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Nycticora



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:11 pm    Post subject:

a big signal I'm getting here is that offensive styles other than crane suck shit

I've never seen anybody ever dual wield against a monk so I'm calling bullshit on that. If you're going up against some Voglin-kitted motherfucker who has such a gear advantage he can dual wield against you, you can't win that fight. You might as well be a nymph. Sorry, try again later on that one.

I do not agree monks have "perma fly". If there's no cast lag on their fly command that's a bug. If there is cast lag it's not perma.

I'd be down with putting a 6-pulse lag (same as casting cure critical) on monk heal and buffing offensive stances, but that buffing is hard and will take thought.
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Faelon
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:25 pm    Post subject:

On my last monk, Vidar, I held my own. Low kills, low deaths. 9 - 5 at pinnacle. Not my best, not my worst. I didn't really start to get my ass handed to me, until some warlords stumbled on to the fact that you could dual wield magic damage weapons and just out dps me. I tried going into panda style, thinking, okay, keep advantage and I got dunked. Multiple times this happened.

I've done it to monks on paladins, dark knights, rangers and berserkers. My preferred classes, outside of monks.

EDIT: Crane is defensive.

DOUBLE EDIT: I like the sound of that last thought. Would be interesting to see how that played out.
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Nycticora



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:16 am    Post subject:

I was talking to bladefurry in IRC and he said wielding weapons as monks is useless because they take up the main hand and the offhand monk attacks don't seem to go through.

We're thinking about making it so that if a monk wields a weapon in a stance, it becomes <dual-wielded> even though his main hand is empty. That should solve a lot of problems.

Also there seem to be issues with combat style detection with weapon-wielding monks. We might need to work on a twohands style where they can use like a polearm or staff or something and still get some cool martial arts attacks.
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Nycticora



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:44 am    Post subject:

monks can wield bows right, what happens when you wield a bow against one of these dual wielding r̶e̶t̶a̶r̶d̶s warlords
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BlackWidow



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:08 am    Post subject:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't dragon stance be effective against an enemy dual-wielding magic weapons? It's an offensive stance and it should make disarming the opponent easier.

Edit: Apparently that stance no longer affects disarmament chance. I could swear it DID at one point, perhaps before the rework.

Edit #2: I also seem to remember the stance coming with an increase in size (something to that affect in the old help file). Both of these things are why I thought dragon stance might be a good pick.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:49 am    Post subject:

I mapped the weapon stuff out a year ago and found it to be a waste of time to work on. Monk weapon wielding wont override the combat style the monk is in because the natural way to use them is just mirroring their kung fu moves (e.g. snake is a two handed style and thats that, no matter what you wield with it), and since that makes all weapons stat-sticks and since they already have prayer beads to hold for stats, there's really no point in doing a full implementation of weapons, and another thing is that the monk mechanics are so different from regular class mechanics that they are not really anywhere close to being code-ready for wearing weapons. It was not an accident to have beads that you can just hold, it was equivalent to about 3 weeks of work (which takes me about 2 months nowadays)), and furthermore you dont have to worry about beads being disarmed, which I like because they have enough to worry about.
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Ergorion



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:44 pm    Post subject:

Nyct, I thought a bow-wielding monk would be pretty badass but the penalties for using a bow are pretty harsh. Kind of like a thief wielding a bow. Except for that elusive 60 damroll thief I've never been able to stick with,,,
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