Paladin's patch

[Davairus]

No it won't be paladins in April, we still don't have a solid healing-based spec yet. But it should be feasible to have it out in July.

[Andrael]

Still looking for more ideas? And is it just the healing paladin holding it back?

[Davairus]

yes, still looking, its not too late to submit ideas

[Dogran]

Have you considered giving paladins some sort of holy auras where each spec the aura does something different? That would be a good way for continuous healing. Also, probably take holy armor from healing pallies, or make it do something else.

[Andrael]

I'd like the holy aura, maybe have it be something akin to the druid's spirit bond? Where they get a stat buff of some sort and a hidden effect? Like fire gives damage, but also acts like an enhanced damage of sorts, or earth bond gives you health and protection like effect.

I think instead of taking things away, find what you feel would be baseline for all paladins, then go from there. For example, if you want one spec to be a one-hand and shield user, it doesn't really need set parry or buckler, but would need a compensation for that or so.

A healing-based paladin wouldn't really need to dual wielding, but the buckler skill would be good, if its a staff user, which I think most people are looking at. You could also tie in some abilities and have it use divine power like healers have.

Then the avenging based paladins could maybe get a better dual wield, maybe even a dual parry ability to give them more martial prowess against evil? Perhaps it comes at the cost of some spells due to them be more 'physically' focus?

Just a few extra thoughts.

[Andrael]

Maybe do a bit of what was done with the DKN, and see what spells and skills can be shifted via spec, and fill in from there. Ya know?

[Mr. Forgotten]

My input is to do something about combat styles for them in pvp.

-There really is no incentive to dual wield. Dual wielding against a fighter means you only have one defense aside from holy armor which is heavily dependent upon how heavy your armor is AND if it is considered heavy equipment. The average amount of holy armor bonus is between 30 and 60. Not very much. While it is a nice bonus, I find that it is not very effective against bashing like it's supposed to be and doesn't compensate for the loss of a shield or set parry (even when holy armor bonus is in the 90-100+ range).

-Wielding a two-handed weapon is really the only viable way to compete in pvp and now that is nerfed by anyone who can rake a weapon, i.e. rogues with their uncanny attack (so long as you are not wielding a polearm/mace in which case they would likely kick dirt into your eyes then swap out to a dagger and sidestep you to death), berserkers, and warriors. Set parry used to protect against that, so at the very least, the stability of wielding it with both hands could substantially shorten the amount of time that the weapon is raked to the side. This shortening of of rake duration could also apply to warriors who have double-gripped their weapons.
As for bucklers, I feel that reducing hitroll for extra defense is reasonable, however, there are shields out there that are called bucklers that cannot be used as bucklers because they are too heavy. To remedy this, you could add a filter to the buckler skill that only allows armor classified as bucklers to be used in that fashion.

-One-hand weapon and shield combat is fine as far as I'm concerned.

Since the paladins are WARRIORS of light, you could grant them some kind of ability that allows them increased effectiveness in combat if they have superior combat style. Something comparable to the warrior's concentration skill, but it mitigates damage instead of increasing it.

*The Paladin's skill in combat is recognized by the gods and rewarded by increased longevity in combat (damage mitigation of some kind) provided he maintains combat style superiority.

This ability would solve the problem of having lost a defense for switching to dual wield and also provide incentive to use the other combat styles. The additional striking power of dual wielding would be enough reason to have a weapon in each hand. Having set parry and its benefits is worth being in two-hand. The defense provided by a shield and the ability to slam it into opponents is pretty sweet for their defensive style.

Dirt kick/blindness dust is incredibly lethal:

-As of right now, Paladins DO get a form of protection against it, but you have to land reckoning which means you lose movement IF you can land it. Not only do you have to land it TWICE, but in addition to the two abilities successfully landing, you also have to cast blind faith which is 1.5-2 rounds between reckoning and then another 1.5-2 rounds for the spell. By my count, thats at least 4-6 rounds of fighting blind. I think a way to help would be to drop the reckoning prerequisite and simply allow the spell to be cast at will and just keep the 1-3 hour duration so that the Paladin still has to refresh it, much like a weapon ward, if he wants to fight blind.

[Mr. Forgotten]

I couldnt edit my message, but I just discovered that strike of faith now in fact works against fighters and unholy armor users.

[Davairus]

Hi guys, I believe I have identified a problem here and I am throwing it out to you all to give me some feedback. I think we need to get through this before we can add the oathing things.

First of all, I *assert* that the paladin's role is group leader. I then assert that for the paladin to be a capable group leader (i.e. a true anchor), he's going to need to understand group roles. In order for the paladin to understand group roles, the paladin must have a skill set which models the various group roles well enough for him to pick them up.

This frames the discussion that needs to take place.

Essentially, for the paladin to perform its role, and also to be a useful experience for the player to have, it needs to have (arguably) the best warrior skills, (arguably) the best healer skills, something to use which is very like mages/rogues things, and nothing too specific. It needs to be limited to kinda just the best things and steer clear of going too deep into other things, especially going off the reservation.

If you guys can buy that, then the problem we have now is identifying what skills are the haves and have nots, to enable the paladin to understand through experience what makes a good group composition. Right now a paladin doesn't heal the same way as a healer (that class uses cure continual) , and doesn't tank the same way as a warrior (dodge/dual parry) or even a thief (counterbalance one-handed). Set parry/holy armor is completely unique mechanics that seems to lock them in two-handers which is another issue with this class - see above where Mr.F said "paladins should never dual wield".

Some initial thoughts: giving them cure crit would help. Set parry added onto other "fighters" (warrior/ranger/berserker/vampire), and dodge added onto paladin/dkn helps to make the tanking more uniform and clears up overall confusion.. I realize this may sound drastic but also common sense says build a paladin class that enables its player to understand other people's experiences better. And we need to strike a balance between, i.e. best of both worlds, not a super-tanky guy with shit heals or its opposite, and not just shit at both.

P.S. The oathing stuff is deeply important to the class balance as we really are going to need an RP enforced as a counter-weight to its strengths. That's stuff they have to live by period, and messes with their groups in a major way too.

[Kornhole]

IDK, I love dual wield, extra damage, and also double strikes of faith! But lets complicate it!!!!

[Davairus]

Kornhole I'm sure you have played a bunch of paladins and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on that because its obvious you didn't read it. There's nothing complicated about making sure paladins play is closer related other classes (and more evenly balanced in that regard) and then adding an oath which literally simplifies their RP. Anyway its fine to have no faith in the Imms considering how many times the paladin class has been fucked around. I know I wouldn't expect anything good either.

I realize its also a long post to read but its a fairly simple concept honestly. Which is that you can't lead the group if you don't understand your groupmates f'ing class.

[Dogran]

In the last year or so I had a paladin mortal leader of justice. For the most part, I had fun. My biggest complaint with them is they did not feel like giant vanquishers of evil. You picture paladin as being overwhelming against forces that directly channel evil IE shamans and such, yet my hardest fight was against shamans and fighters second. That is where the focus should be, but with that said I agree with everything you said in your post Dav. They are leaders, they need to have the knowledge and experience of all. The biggest thing I see is that in my mind there are different kinds of paladins. They are not all just a heavy armor two-handed weapon user. Anyway, I have been thinking about ideas, but I haven't come up with anything that didn't seem way overpowered yet, so I am still thinking hah.

[Davairus]

Nadrin: you are identifying the stereotypical "Judge Dredd" paladin, the "I'm right, you're wrong and should be smited" type. That's the oath of vengeance type paladin.. the guy that absolutely needs stake, turn undead and shit like that.

What I'm looking for right now is just fielding repairs for the base class. This isn't about specializations or complicating things atm. Its about figuring out what are the basic warrior skills and healer (or druid, if you like) spells that this paladin class must not be without. We want a "best of both worlds" strength accompanied with a "lack of focus" weakness. Like literally this.. they could arguably have word of recall / locate object (both are key cleric spells) and just let enforced oath RP lead to hoarders being outcasted. They would then obviously know about tricks like using word of recall to get out of DEEP SHIT (good to tell mages to do that), other things like locate sleeping bags, potions and advise their groupmates accordingly. Dispel magic and blind fighting are quite big things to give up on both sides and we can call that a problem of lack of focus.

P.S. You guys can post suggestions or say its fine or whatever.This isn't an urgent process

[BlackWidow]

Davairus> if we are talking about warrior skills, I would consider those to include disarm and shield disarm... Shield disarm in particular sets warrior types apart from rogues. In the past, I have seen DKs wield a mace and shield against a rogue while using unholy strength... The only way the rogue could disarm the shield was with poison or otherwise managing to weaken their opponent sufficiently. Meanwhile, a warrior type would just dual wield and disarm the shield.

[ivindel]

Hah... if we are to give paladins (hybrid) all these warrior skills, such as dodge, disarm, shield disarm, then how are they any different from pure warrior classes (warrior, rangers, berserkers)? Look at monks, they are already a super tanky and high damaging (low damage but high consistency) warrior "hybrid" with super efficient healing abilities. Why give a class with innate sanctuary and healing the same level of tankiness as a pure warrior class, and not forgetting a wrath nuke spell - isn't it too OP?

I believe dodge was taken away from dark-knights (and maybe from paladins? not sure abt it) in the past for good reason (to differentiate hybrids from pure warrior types?):
- Defensive -> parry, shield block (2 defences)
- Dual wield -> parry (1 defence) with higher damage potential
- Two-handed -> parry, set parry (2 defences) with higher damage from 2handed

For warriors and rangers:
- Defensive -> parry, shield block, dodge (3 defences)
- Dual wield -> parry, dual parry, dodge (3 defences) with higher damage potential
- Two-handed -> parry, dodge (2 defences) with higher damage from 2handed

If you are looking into making dual wield style a viable option for paladins/dark-knights, then maybe adding dual parry might actually be a more sensible choice instead of dodge. But if this is the case, I ask that you also add set parry for pure warriors so that they have a consistent 3 defences across all combat styles. In the current meta, you will notice that most pure warriors (if not all) will not use two-handed largely due to the reduced defences (which is essentially the same problem that paladins/dark-knights are facing with dual wield style).

Dodge is current available only to warriors, rangers, berserkers (which are pure warrior types), monks (fuck monk healing) and rogues. Please kindly consider the huge impact it will have on these classes if dodge is also given to paladins and dark-knights.

[Davairus]

Invindel : you mentioned dodge was removed from paladins for a good reason that you then threw a guess at? What is this good reason? I have been trying to see it. I think it'd be a break-through for getting this shit right.

I think we finally got DK right with abyssal bulwark and I don't think that class needs any more changes. I think its fine just the way it is. I will say the same for warriors, rangers, invokers. They have a nice variety of stuff to use.

As for paladins, I'm not looking to just pull some bullshit and then act way smarter. We can all simply look at the paladin class for ourselves. What are good questions? For instance, you said the paladin has efficient healing. Good observation. But tell me, what on earth do they need that for? Don't they need triage to save groupmates? Efficient healing is a specialized thing, great to have a priest in the group. Efficient healing on paladins maybe just means the paladins going to watch his groupmate die too quickly to do anything about it with his small efficient heals. How does that sound? Sounds like some spam expensive wrath and just hope for the best to me

[Bladefury]

I agree with giving warr vamp berserker not sure what else was said ser parry if you give dodge back to paladins. I do not think dk need re worked or given another defence perhaps make that special to paladins like dk get pulverize

[ivindel]

I know for a fact that dodge was taken away from dark-knights, but I do not know whether paladins ever had dodge. Obviously I also do not know the actual reason why this was implemented, but I can only guess that it is related to what I am going to mention in the following.

Simply put, I just don't think a class that has innate sanctuary, protection, healing and a nuke spell should be given also the best defences the game can offer. With dodge introduction for paladins, defensive and two-handed styles are going to have 3 defences and it does nothing for the problem of dual wield being underused to begin with (because then, paladins will only have parry and dodge in dual wield, which is obviously inferior to staying in two-handed when you have enhanced damage from two-handed, and you can even wear a buckler for additional an defence, albeit weaker version of shield block).
Wow, 4 defences in two-handed, how is this even balanced? That is even more than a typical warrior class that is supposed to be more well-versed in these defensive manuveurs than any other classes.

The abovementioned is then why I suggested that if you want to let paladins have a viable option for dual wield, just give them dual parry because it's only usable in dual wield, and not give dodge that provides an additional layer of defence across the board.

I speak from a player point of view from my side of the fence (warrior side obviously), hoping that a good balance can be maintained when considering to introduce such drastic changes (in my opinion).

Pro-paladin players will naturally welcome having dodge added to their arsenal. However, I definitely do not agree with adding dodge for certain.

[Mikoos]

I think handing out set parry across the board to other fighters would be regrettable. Giving dual parry to paladins would be fine.

Also I’m failing to see the point of this? They’re group leaders they have skills for that. Holy armor isn’t bad? Or are you trying to get rid of AC completely as a game mechanic above 36? I can see wanting to change AC after Xenyar paladins and Mkato types, but I wouldn’t want to focus that on just one class.

I know pallys are kind of a one trick pony. Maybe wrath can do more than just damage and curse. Maybe there should be a change to strike of faith and make it viable to use during pk.

[Davairus]

When we talk about making the paladin more balanced, I think currently its about making the fighter side of paladin more balanced with the healing side of it. Its definitely set up to look a jack-of-all-trades (that's what we are identify when you say defenses + healing + wraths). It actually *is* a one-trick-pony because wrath is dependable in an otherwise mediocre class.

"How is this possibly balanced?" was the question. We have the answer.

And again, here is the answer to the question.
* best of both worlds, but lack of focus

best of both worlds -> "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts"
lack of focus -> "a little of everything, but not too great at one thing"

That second part does not sound like paladin wrath spell at all, does it?

I think a total newbie to the game would view a paladin as a heavily armored high defense character with heals. What he would not realize is that the shield block is barraged away instantly. Another thing he would not realize is that if he dual wields, he is one overhead crush away from weaponless and kneeling. Another thing he would not realize (this would be hilarious, if it was not sad) is that strike of faith has to pass TWO saves checks. So yeah. Paladins end up just wrathing because everybody came to forums and asked what's going on, and we heard "shut up you have sanc and wrath". We all did that.

If we can agree paladins are appropriate to be without dodge then its time to consider they are completely defenseless after various skills that double disarm. If we just say no more fighter stuff needed and no more cleric stuff needed and proceed, then there is an easy out. We have the psionicist skill "iron will" that resisted the effects of bash and things. If they can similar resist disarms and barrage via willpower, then I say ok, no need for dodge to tank these shit situations, and no need for word of recall to get out of them. And I can then throw them dual parry without that being a joke.

Let me know if I sound insane.