Monks

[Cthanos]

Why are monks not allowed to become a keeper?

[tayyah]

there has been tons of monk keepers

[Kedaleam]

Certain things on the webpage are a bit out of date after a decent amount of additions and changes.

[Cthanos]

Ah yes, the website must be out of date as it says it does not allow keepers. So monks are allowed then?

[Ceridwel]

Yes, monks can be Keepers. Always go with what the in-game help files say as opposed to the website ones.

[Davairus]

They're supposed to be pulling info from the same source.
Can you please inform me what page you are talking about?

[Cthanos]

The keeper page on the website http://abandonedrealms.com/realms/cabals/keeper.php

Helpfile does not say it either.


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[KEEPER] - Keepers of Balance

A long dormant cabal originally conceived by the ancient god Rakhashe, the
Keepers of Balance are the sentinels and guardians of Balance against
overly-powerful individuals and cabals alike. Long have they watched Serin
from the shadows of history as wars and even a great purging have swept
across the realms. Now, the Keepers have arisen at last to side against
those who would use raw power to upset Serin's stability. Despite being
matched against the powerful, Keepers are forbidden to match their
opponents' power in items with their own. All Keepers swear off all rare
and unique items to follow the path of diplomacy, alliances, coordination,
cunning, and courage, depending on the situation.

Although they are nominally at peace with all other cabals, Keepers have
also charged with preventing any single cabal from becoming too powerful.
Therefore, unless to disarm specifically marked individuals of their wares,
Keepers will ONLY involve themselves in cabal warfare when they have been
specifically mobilized to join the weaker side in cabal conflicts,
especially to liberate captured cabal items. However, because shifts in
power can occur rapidly, any alliance with the Keepers is temporary at best,
and Keepers tend to have few friends outside of their own cabal. This is
because Keepers are unreliable allies, and have been known to turn sides the
moment their cabal judges their former peers to have grown too powerful.
The life of Keepers is always to challenge those whose power threaten the
stability of the realms, and Keepers view their actions not in terms of good
or evil, but as being wholly necessary to Serin's continued survival.

To join Keeper, one must be pledged to follow Virgil. Other ethos are
considered, but there are no exceptions for the pledge.

See also: EDICTS

[Davairus]

Well I dont have a solution for that

[Nycticora]

it's this line:

Classes allowed : Warrior, Thief, Illusionist, Invoker, Ranger, Bard, and Shadow.

This is one of the biggest problems with writing rules that specify what can be done instead of writing rules that specify what can not be done. Every time you make a minor change the rule needs to be updated. We don't have (and never had) the manpower to maintain these pages every time some minor code change is implemented, such as when a class is opened up to a previously-restricted alignment.

Also, with the way we punish rules in AR, we train the player base to be afraid of breaches. As in this case, players believe that unless the helpfiles expressly allow their behavior they're in danger of breaking the rules. So, rather than testing to see if a monk can join Keepers by roleplaying through it, we get this metagame thread asking for permission. And this further reinforces the widely-held idea that entry into a cabal is a right you earn by checking all the boxes of allowed traits, and not a privilege earned through superior performance. This results in players throwing hissy fits when not accepted into cabals because they believe their right has been denied.

Solution is remove all the lines in the help files that state what classes or races are allowed into cabals and write rules that state which actions are forbidden without ever speaking of which actions are allowed.

I'd like to remove the "entrance requirements" section for every cabal webpage.

[Nycticora]

list of requirements on website removed from every cabal by commenting out the line

we should probably replace it with the cabal helpfile at some point but php makes me physically sick

[Davairus]

is he saying the helpfile doesnt say it but it does?

its really not that complicated. the website isnt pulling the leader-appended requirement. we shouldnt be hyper-reacting to these things

[Cthanos]

A long dormant cabal originally conceived by the ancient god Rakhashe, the
Keepers of Balance are the sentinels and guardians of Balance against
overly-powerful individuals and cabals alike. Long have they watched Serin
from the shadows of history as wars and even a great purging have swept
across the realms. Now, the Keepers have arisen at last to side against
those who would use raw power to upset Serin's stability. Despite being
matched against the powerful, Keepers are forbidden to match their
opponents' power in items with their own. All Keepers swear off all rare
and unique items to follow the path of diplomacy, alliances, coordination,
cunning, and courage, depending on the situation.

Although they are nominally at peace with all other cabals, Keepers have
also charged with preventing any single cabal from becoming too powerful.
Therefore, unless to disarm specifically marked individuals of their wares,
Keepers will ONLY involve themselves in cabal warfare when they have been
specifically mobilized to join the weaker side in cabal conflicts,
especially to liberate captured cabal items. However, because shifts in
power can occur rapidly, any alliance with the Keepers is temporary at best,
and Keepers tend to have few friends outside of their own cabal. This is
because Keepers are unreliable allies, and have been known to turn sides the
moment their cabal judges their former peers to have grown too powerful.
The life of Keepers is always to challenge those whose power threaten the
stability of the realms, and Keepers view their actions not in terms of good
or evil, but as being wholly necessary to Serin's continued survival.

To join Keeper, one must be pledged to follow Virgil. Other ethos are
considered, but there are no exceptions for the pledge.


This is the helpfile for keeper and it does not mention monks.

[Nycticora]

no he's saying some nonsense but at his link if you clicked it there used to be a list of requirements for each cabal

see contents of public_html/../dumps/dump_cabal_reqs.json

I don't understand why he pasted that irrelevant stuff that doesn't even include what he's complaining about instead of the relevant line. Getting information out of players about what they're complaining about is like trying to pull elephant teeth

the reason he thinks the helpfile has to mention monks is because he believes unless the helpfile specifically tells him monks can join it's against the rules for him to apply with a monk

[Cthanos]

Actually, I was not complaining, I asked a question and they said they could join. The information I found said otherwise. That is the helpfile if you type in keeper in the search helpfiles.

[Nycticora]

I know it's the helpfile and I know why you posted it, but Davairus didn't click your link before I removed the (inaccurate, outdated) requirements list that used to be in the link you posted.

The reason he didn't click the link you posted is because he thought you were pasting the contents of the link to show him where the problem was. But you weren't posting the contents of the link, you were posting the helpfile.

The contents of the link used to have a list of "allowed classes" that was incorrect. I just removed this incorrect list of "allowed classes".

Furthermore, I hereby declare "allowed things" must never be written in helpfiles. Only "disallowed things" may be written in helpfiles. This rule will help avoid this situation in the future. So, unless something specifically tells you you can't do something, you may assume you can do it until informed otherwise. You may place all blame and responsibility for errors encountered while following this on me, and I will handle any issues that arise.

[Davairus]

I understand that you're trying to help, and I appreciate it, but that clearly isn't the way to go for the cabals. The cabals entrance rules need to remain dictated and ran by the mortal leaders in however manner they want to do it. i'd rather we delete the cabal pages from the website than throw their authority away. The statement is probably true for the rest of the game helpfiles though. Like religion crap. But the mortal leaders are a stronger authority on their own cabals than any Imm without the deny power. Lets correct course and move on