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Outlaws changed to Anathemas

 
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Abandoned Realms



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 246

PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:48 pm    Post subject: Outlaws changed to Anathemas

Henceforth, those who are outlaws shall now be referred to in name as
anathema. This label is for those who prove themselves to be the antithesis
of the beliefs and principles of Valour, and it shall be judged by the
crimes commited against the greatest kingdom in the west.

To be anathema to Valour, is to oppose everything Valour stands for.
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Sebryn



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 1204

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:11 pm    Post subject:

So are Justices going to get 'Outlaw' flags back anytime soon?

They could possibly be auto-assigned to someone once they've reached the highest level of criminality, but instead of everyone being able to see the flag perhaps only the Justices could see them now (so as not to promote attacks in town just because someone doesn't have protection).

Also, several of the law/Justice helpfiles use reference to Outlaws... so either they're gonna have to be revised (some need done anyway) or hopefully the Outlaw tags can be brought back. Any ideas?
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:26 pm    Post subject:

You actually suggested all common criminals should become "wanted" permanently... did you forget the [joke][/joke] tags?
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Sebryn



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:31 pm    Post subject:

[nojoke]"Outlaws" in the old sense of the flag weren't "wanted" 24/7... they just weren't protected. On the flipside, if an [OUTLAW] attacked someone else, then they were [WANTED] and were actively hunted by the Justices.

Justices shouldn't be attacking Outlaws in town in the first place, but if the common criminals lost their protection it might be a crime deterrent. They'd be wondering why nobody was flagged when they were attacked in town with a Justice around, yet they were still held to the law when they were in Seringale.

Personally I don't think that someone who repeatedly breaks the laws should still be protected by them. No regard for the law should mean no protection under it. It doesn't make sense that someone who has shown time and time again that they don't give a rat's ass for the Justice cabal or the laws of Seringale should continue to receive protection by those same cabal members and the laws that they continuously break.[/nojoke]
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:01 pm    Post subject:

Justice brings stability to the mud via the deterrence of violent crimes. Stripping protections encourages town violence and is against their cabal goals. If you believe violence on people who break the rules is justifiable, then you should be in the Legion cabal. Even criminals (WANTED) are protected under the law. There is no such thing as no protection. Hence, it'd mean permawanted, not perma no-protection. Which is less uber, so now I'm even more amazed at your suggestion.

Realise that there are multiple cabals and Justice can't have the strengths of all of them if the others are to be worth playing. Their laws are their strength but they are also their weak point (because they can't allow everyone to beat up their foes). Bounty for killing Justices is more than enough. I don't want to escalate the Justice cabal's powers even more. Its not really doing much to improve the game.

If anything, the best useful high level role they had was to play a swing cabal, which can attack either side (Knight/Legion) if it got too strong, but now that's been shafted, I'm content to just leave things as they are and worry about the warlord cabal, as opposed to suddenly allow them to just annihilate a bunch of people with no protection for gradually getting wanted repeatedly due to login accidents. Yep, there is a lot of common criminals out there.
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Sebryn



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 1204

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:23 pm    Post subject:

Back during the "Justice vs. Everybody (but really just Knights)" war, people with the [OUTLAW] flag had several disadvantages:

1. Their status as Outlaw was known to EVERYBODY, not just the Justices.
2. The Justices actively pursued and attempted to kill them... in town... repeatedly (Deiminos and Drengar spring to mind).
3. They were still subject to being wanted and thus actively hunted by the Justices that would otherwise leave them alone (they didn't have protection, but they were still forced to abide by the laws).

What I was suggesting was to bring back the Outlaw flags, but with a few changes:

1. Make them visible to Justices ONLY, thus not marking them as "open season" in the eyes of others in their range.
2. Tell Justices that they're not to attack Outlaws (or anyone, for that matter) in town, as any attack will be considered a violation of their own personal guidelines, if not a breach of the law itself.
3. Have the Outlaw flags appear only once a character has been wanted and apprehended enough times to gain the highest degree of criminality.

Quote:
Stripping protections encourages town violence and is against their cabal goals.

You're right, but there's more to that:

If a Justice sees a common/die-hard criminal, they're obviously someone that doesn't give two shits about the law or town violence anyway. They've obviously broken the law, instigated town violence, and breached the peace code several times over - they show blatant disregard for the law, and will continue to do so. Why would a Justice care if the rest of the citizens help to dispose of an obvious troublemaker and menace to society? They're just helping to remedy future outbreaks of violence and lawlessness... but they wouldn't know that the person is an Outlaw until they attacked and didn't get flagged for it, so it wouldn't be actively encouraged anyway.

I guess I'm wondering why it was "okay before, but not anymore." I remember logging in and seeing 4-5 [OUTLAW]s on, and hearing several yells in town of people (without wanted flags) being attacked by Justices, in addition to attacks they received from other people. It was ultra-chaotic before, but with changing up some of the rules behind someone being Outlawed to fit a more orderly situation now, I think it would serve a greater purpose.

My point, boiled down, is this:

- In AR, if you break a law you're flagged.
- Once you're flagged, you get apprehended.
- When you're apprehended, your criminal status grows.
- If you continue this pattern, it's obvious that you're doing it on purpose.
- If you're doing it on purpose, you obviously don't care about the law.
- If you don't care about the law, why should it care about you?
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Louis



Joined: 19 Jan 2004
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Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:08 am    Post subject:

just a thought, but here's my opinion on why i think justices should still protect you even if you break the law and are apprehended several times.

because justice is the strongest cabal and can rape you sideways if your protection is stripped. justice is around to provide a safe haven for newbies sure, but at 50 the fighting field should be somewhat level because that's what allows people to enjoy the pk scene.

a good example of how stripping peoples' protection and how it was balanced was the justice knight war. the odds were basically evened by the ginormous amount of ooc and the every cabal vs justice stance. it was actually the ooc/every cabal vs justice that came first, then came the stripping protection to even the odds for the outmatched/outnumbered justices.

its easy for justice advocates to say "just don't break the law" and get trigger happy to strip peoples' protection. i think that's a byproduct of a need to feel powerful, particularly in the justice cabal. even if i was a justice, i would want a playing field in which things were somewhat even so my enemy could acknowledge that our individual skill decided the outcome. remember, my character lost ensnare permanently but it helped his reputation in the long run. i don't think trashing someone's char by stripping them of protection is in the interest of the game, especially when those guys who are trying to make a name for themselves (and thus causing tension with people from several cabals) are also being banged by rampant justices who hold the trump card of the wanted flag.
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Louis



Joined: 19 Jan 2004
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Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:10 am    Post subject:

besides, dying to justice and being full looted (as a common criminal) is already the full penalty of dying to anyone. stripping someone's protection is slapping on an extra insult to injury (if the guy is just trying to play his char). if the guy is trashy and breaks rules/rp constraints, then i think stripping protection may be an adequate punishment.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:13 am    Post subject:

Do the imms ever withdraw the rules protection from other people? Have we made a penalty flag where, instead of just deleting that char, we labelled them "owned" or something and now the pk ranges have been turned off, plus you can break the rules all you like just to kill that person.

"obviously they did it on purpose and dont care" - Now you're introducing intent. Which is what Knights care about. There's been Justices who don't give much of a rat's ass about their laws, nevermind the rest of the mud. It doesnt really matter because that cabal doesnt concern itself with intent.
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