The End of Warlords.

[Smotpoker]

ok the keepers cabal thing the rp is something i have done alot on past charcters and i belive its gonna work out fine. think about it 3 evils 2 goods and one keeper in a single fight and if the battle is already a 3 on 3 why woould they help its balance right there. i like this new cabal and everyone just needs to shut up about its not gonna work shit and let it pan out. I know many people who said that the combat stuff would never work and now alot of people like it now so just give it time like everything else. People dont be scared of change its all for the better. good works imms and imps.

[Kalist19]

I think this is awesome. It's exciting to see something be implemented that has been in the works for many years. You nay-sayers who are complaining just need to sit back and let it happen. There were complaints at the beginning of Combat module A/B, etc, and everything there has worked out to improve gameplay and make it more fluid. I'm really interested to see what the philosophies of the Keepers will be and how they will interact with the strongly established cabals of Legion and Knights.

[gomer]

okay I actually read what burzuk posted so....

keepers still sound like they intend not to let one alignment run amuck(?) so I believe that with the normal AR alignment swings (ei: Legion is kicking everones ass so all the putz' make evils which causes the good players in legion to get bored and make goods, which in turn all the putz' realize they have no backbone and delete and make goods...... and so) the keepers are to put a stop to that... like Nychlas around lvl 35 which is what he did, he was also neutral, neutral and not chaotic.

though after reading burzuks post keepers sound less ranger/druid like and more straight neutral - warriors, rangers, invokers, thieves? and ninjas? maybe, illusionist?, bards ?..... sound interesting anyway

[Rezakhan]

At no point did I say this wasn't going to work--I tried to take great pains to note that I have no idea what Keepers will be like. I think it is just unfortunate that to make room for this new cabal, a unique cabal with a unique role in the realms like Warlords had to be removed. I think regardless of what the Keepers role will be, there still would be a place for Warlords.

[Vhrael]

Here's my take on this:

If you take a look at the current cabals (Knight, Legion, Justice) you'll notice one big similarity - each one has a somewhat global influence in the AR world. Knights seek out evils and anathema across the entire realm; even if they kill off everything, they can still try to convert others to "follow the Light." Legion exerts its influence over everybody, trying to gain more power through fear, threats and extortion. Justice is probably the most limited in their influence, which mostly extends to just the confines of Seringale; however, being that it's arguably the most important area/city in the game, their influence is still considerable.

Then you have the Warlords, basically a glorified "Fight Club." By saying that, I'm in no way discrediting the quality of players or characters associated with the cabal; I'm trying to look at this from a "global influence" perspective. Warlords had a very introverted and personal agenda, being the "search for the perfect duel" or whatever you want to call it. They didn't have the realm-wide influence that other cabals do. If you didn't want to fight them, you didn't fight them.

Not saying the Warlords wasn't a fun cabal to be part of; it was always fun to watch duels in the arena or to participate in them, to see how well you could do without resorting to purple potions or healing scrolls, etc. But if that's what people still want (i.e. "make Warlords a coterie"), then all you need to do is go to the arena, leave the purples behind, and challenge your opponent.

The Keepers, according to the interpretation of the "hints" thus far, will have a vested and very direct interest in global affairs within AR. It won't be about sitting on one's laurels, asking people in your PK range if they want to fight. This will effectively be giving a neutral cabal the ability to have enough desire for whatever goal their guidelines will outline.

As others have said, give it a chance before you tear it down. It could be better than what's been done before.

[theobserver]

Months ago when Burzuk announced teasers that a cabal would be replaced by a 'new and controversial' group, Warlords was my favourite to go. Warlords had limited classes, were at a big disadvantage during cabal warfare once their item was stolen ( no cabal skills, no magic) and were generally one dimensional.

I do think though that with a few changes and restoring the non-lethal challenge they would make a nice coterie. It is a great way to learn - knowing that you can fight to the death and still not die.

[sissuris]

Well, im always down for changes. I got one question. What about all the applicants and chars that are all no_magic with warlords gone this seems almost retarded in itself. Will this option be removed so that all these people like jeo and what not who have spent an unreal amount of time training, arent stuck with a bunch of gimps? Just woundering because this hasnt been brought up in this thread. Not sure if this has been said elsewhere, but anyways. Will they have the option to have it removed?

[Vhrael]

[_Clifton_]

Since when have the IMMs ever done something so drastic without thinking the entire thing through?

That said, I'm excited for keepers.

[Davairus]

I've been a kickass Warlord my whole life because of, uhhh, my extreme devotion to the painful mantra of no-magic use. But now my cabal is closed, I've decided I want to take all that back. Show mee the purples!!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_%28role-playing_games%29

[Kazagistar]

^ That is an awsome site. Hmm... this gives me an interesting idea.

[sissuris]

I dont want to start an aggressive argument over this, because well this has nothing to do with me. I havent been a forum natzi(not sure if this is the proper term, but i mean checking the forum every half an hour for new changes/deletes etc) for a couple weeks, but been checking it enough that I believe that this whole closing of the warlord cabal was brought on without a warning, other than this thread. But I believe with this thread was the closing of it. I could see that if maybe this was just a closing with the promise of a reopening in the near future. I would see it viable for the current no_magics to keep on roleplaying this, but like I said, you really just gimped about 6-8 chars that have spent alot of time training etc by removing the warlords. Now with the warlords closed there is absolutely no point in having even nomagic an option anymore. I can see maybe 1-2 players that will keep on trying to get warlords as a craperie other than that warlords is just going to fade away. I am absolutely with the whole idea of a new cabal, changes on this mud for the most part, I'd say a good 85-15% split have been awesome and for the better. but not giving them the option of going back to there old ways, you might as well make them all no_magic gnome dark knights, without dirt. I just see it as kind of cruel to them.

[Erlwith]

It's my personal opinion that the administration care very little about the individual player and more about their idea of what is best for the entire game as a whole. I never cared for the Warlords, so I am neither for or against their removal. Keepers sound interesting, but for those few warlords left it's unfortunate. Your well-being is less important then the overall advancement of the game. As such, because you have no Warlord skills or magic now means little to the people more interested in the advancement of the game and the newest cabals.

Basically

It goes something like this,

1 player = who cares.
6 players = we care, but not really. delete and start something new. We need keepers!
Majority of players = We listen, but the two of us still know more then all of you.
All players = well I guess if they all leave it's a bit counterproductive, huh.

While there is truth in "you can't please everyone" the staff really need to realize that your primary goal or the backlash of your primary goals shouldn't piss the majority of people off. And by the string of deletes, the constant complaints and the hisses, it's fair to say your grand-stand changes aren't going over well with a good majority of the players. Let's not pretend that there's a whole lot more active players out there, that just don't post.


There's some good in your changes, I'll say, but the gayness of ninjas, paladins, and the rest of the newly gimped classes really aren't helping the game. Good things are coming, fine, but that's when you should've nerfed, not before. It's really ass backwards.


There's evidence that listening to the wants and needs of your player base makes for a happier game, and for a fuller game at that. Each individual player matters, because that's what the game is comprised of. If just one warlord get pissed enough at their total new-and-improved-pussiness to quit, you've done more harm then good. Continued to believe otherwise and be prepared for a lot more deletes.

But hey, who cares, I'm just one player.

[Davairus]

There's also evidence that pandering to the "wants" and "needs" of a playerbase ruins any good mud. I offer:

* power of roiy
* group gate
* "ungimped" assassinate
* pre-nerf arborans/tegadols
* pre-nerf Mab/Overseer Mechanus dk charmies
* the entire druid class

Not all changes are bad. Not all people are qualified to be able to tell that. And a lot of people do like to say their piece. I don't see how you got that we dont care about the "individual guy" from all of this, especially considering how much time I put into making "solo play" more fun - quests, patron groups that do dick all for gameplay, etc. we read everything that is posted on the forum.

[Burzuk]

Obviously lots to comment on here. First a few issues that have already been brought up by others:

* Warlords not being involved in cabal combat. Think of how much more popular, dynamic, and interesting cabal conflicts would be if every player with a Warlord character were spending their time instead on a Knight, Legion, Justice, or Keeper (when they come out).
* Warlords being artificially "tethered" and artificially reliant upon cabal skills as no other cabal is. They can't be involved in large-scale cabal warfare because of how devastating it is for their cabal item to be captured. Can you imagine if Warlords were made aggressive, and therefore Runath-era Knights countered by sitting on the Warlord cabal item all the time? It just wouldn't work, and cabal warfare highlights the huge flaws of Warlord mechanics.
* Warlords being severely class restricted. Some have said "so what if warriors/berserkers are self-sufficient now", but then the logical response would be: then where's the cleric cabal? The mage cabal? The rogue cabal? Why privilege warriors/berserkers now that they no longer need that crutch? And why continue to allow them to leech players from other cabals?

We've dealt with existing Warlord players as best we could. Past experience has demonstrated that pre-announcements for changes involving changes/closings of existing characters have always resulted in more drama than resolution (as well as huge spikes in pre-delete trash-playing), so instead we did what we could to cushion this blow for Warlords. For instance, Sethronu had long announced the closing Warlord applications well ahead of our closing the entire cabal so that nobody has the "just got inducted today and suddenly have nowhere to go" problem, and those who were still making Warlord wannabes simply haven't been keeping up with the news as they should've been. As for existing Warlords, Sethronu asked for permission to ease the aggression policy on Warlords recently for the grand hunt he staged, and we granted his request to allow the Warlords to have their last hurrah despite knowing full well the complaints this aggression would generate (and it did, for which I blame neither the Warlords nor the complainers). Did we get any thanks for bending the Warlord code to give them the unique opportunity to live out the Warlord life as fully as time allowed them to? No -- but we still felt we did the right thing in allowing them this.

Whether and how former Warlords choose to continue on without their cabal now is up to them, but "undoing" their previous Warlord RP to allow them magic again is NOT an option on the table. That makes as much as much sense as saying "the changes made necros suck now, so change my character into a berserker instead". Of all characters, you'd expect Warlords to most have the mentality of "make every fight count" and "live in the moment". I've personally been using their CB to urge all the Warlords I've seen to get more duels in before "the changes ahead", and we'd even granted them a parting event to boot, complete with a crowned champion (Vrakka). My opinion is that this crop of Warlords has been given its opportunity. Most will delete soon (or else inactivity delete), but I did want to leave them the option of continuing on with their RP despite their considerable combat disadvantages. It's up to each individual ex-Warlord as to what they want to do here.

Speaking of attitudes like "the changes made necros suck now", usually with changes we get the same people (and types of people) making the same kinds of complaints. For instance, popular sentiment says that necros suck without their old uber acid blast, but I still see an active 50 necro who's still doing just fine -- and HE's not the one complaining on the forum, but it's the people who aren't walking the talk doing the complaining instead. We do pay attention to what's said here on the forum, but we also take a huge grain of salt in considering who's saying it. And it seems to me that it's often the least accomplished (and therefore, least knowledgable and qualified) players who voice their opinions the loudest. As with my necro example above: it matters who's doing the opining. We hear everyone, but not everyone's opinions has the same leverage when it comes to affecting our decisions. "Listening to you" and "doing what you want us to do" are two different things.

By the way, you've probably already noticed some earlier arena changes here and there, such as arena records being extended to non-Warlords. We've been preparing for a more robust "dueling/arena system" that's more feature-rich (for example, wagering on the outcome of duels) and independent of Warlords (thereby including all classes more logically). However, this isn't nearly as high a priority as getting Keepers out and finishing up the afflictive module. Remember, we're working on a huge to-do pipeline here. I'd like to keep moving on.

The only specific quote I'll respond to here:

[Groq]

I usually don't post.. but what gets me is none of the changes are even out.. EVERY fucking time we make a change.. ok they make a change i'm usually not involved but still.. when a change is made.. the SAME people come around bitch about it.. some new bitchers here and there. When the change comes out though.. almost everyone likes it. Why not instead of bitch bitch bitch.. wait? See what's going on, make a Keeper see how it works. If it doesn't work.. then bitch. The shittiest part is.. I might be way off.. but some of the people bitching haven't even had a warlord. Man you guys bitch way to much, then don't bitch cuz the change works out. Lets try not bitching wait for the change.. then bitch if it doesn't work. I think i'm done rambling now. I love you guys.

[Vhrael]

Shut up, bitch.

[Groq]

Vhrael that's why no one likes you.. and you have no friends.

[Sethronu]

Not everyone has what it takes to be a Behemoth of Incomprehensible Friendship...

[Kedaleam]

Out of curiosity, cuz I just never see them anymore, do the warlords that were around still have stance and such?

And of course, because I am too lazy to read all that stuff... Haha

P.S. Groq... That was way too many "Bitch"s in one comment.