Berserker VS Dark-Knight

[Merindol]

Anyone have any pointers/tips on bers vs dk's?

Obviously the easy ones are be prepared with purples and weapon advantage but what else.


Thanks

[_Clifton_]

Rage.

[Slade]

Neither class has blind fighting (pre eye flame rage), so at neutral or better dex advantage (actually, even a little lower is fine) both classes might want to consider dirting early and often. This will more often be DK's (human and drow against usually bigger and/or slower races).

Either class can consider charge every now and then (both classes have reasonable defenses). Along with earlish dirts if not at big dex penalty, berserkers should stick to combat styles (overhead, sideswipe, barrage). My personal order of preference for those (their weapon setup allowing) would probably be overhead>barrage>dirt(likely dex disadvantage drops it a bit)>sideswipe. They can also consider bodyslams or hobble(does it kill unholy armor bash protection like it would for dodge?)-->bodyslams. Don't rage until you are either clearly winning and are going for the kill, or hanging on by a thread and trying to get over the hump. A roar after the rage will be good to mess with the above average volume skill/spell use of the DK. Berserk whenever the time is right.

Usual DK stuff (unholy strength, get a charmie, blah blah). Along with early dirt (don't bother if you suspect a early rage or if the fight is late enough that either a rage is coming or the dirt will guarantee to trigger the rage), the DK will look to get in powerful afflictives like fireball, and probably not play around too much with mals. The berserker will probably be looking to keep style advantage, and it will be hard for you to counter. You should be 2h or 1h+s mostly (drow dk the exception which makes fighting pure fighters more annoying for them), so barrage and sideswipe while sucking to be hit with at least don't pwn as hard as overhead crush (barrage can still be nasty and instant flee worthy sometimes though). However, since he will be occupied on style you should be able to manage weapon type advantage without too much effort to hurt his parry (and again they are often the bigger high str race).. every little thing helps. When the berserker rages, if the DK is still in good shape (rage too early, whatever) the DK should flee one room and spam murder macro, for what basically become flee/murders against his self rage crippled defenses (just parry, and if you have weapon type advantage you hurt that even more), and you can continue doing this until he stops following you.

When winning, either class should look to finish the other off as quickly as possible, because (and when losing you should run and-->) berserkers can get some nice hp gains via sleeping regeneration (and their often high con), and dark-knights can vamp touch random mobs, or summon -> vamp touch ideal ones. Berserker will rage, roar (if hes not going anywhere right away), and probably bodyslam to finish. DK will keep with fireballs or high damage option of choice, and throw in harm for a good surprise finisher.

[Soldier]

Berserkers fuck over everything they fight but you have to stay calm. And you should lead in dirt then bodyslam works nice after a good roar. So it's a easy pattern to remember and it hits hard.

[marsd]

Too much theorycraft on slade's part. Not difficult to win a dk as a zrkr. The dk would be in deep shit if the zrkr spams charge on you when you try the flee/murder cheese if you do it Slade's way, and besides, your charmie flees along with you and doesn't engage if you just do a murder/flee.

[Slade]

The flee/murder is only should the berserker rage early, and the part of the early rage where the berserker hasn't caught on and is blindly following you. If you flee out a room and spam murder macro you will initiate (its not even a conventional flee murder, you are bating him to you), period (with some of your lagtard connections or if you don't use macros or stuff like that, this probably wouldn't apply). You won't get charged or auto rage attacked or anything by the berserker quick enough to beat your spam. He has to move and attack. You are already there. You can get at least a couple murders in this way. You will take less damage (not trading as many rounds straight up against the rage), and do more (free round of attacks against crippled defenses). Thats not theorycraft. Thats anti-berserker 101.

[marsd]

You have to flee, and murder.... the berserker just has to stand and murder, or just charge. Especiall now if he's a mino zrkr.... @_@

[Slade]

No you aren't flee/murdering normally, that would walk you right into a berserker auto attack, you couldn't spam fast enough and the berserker doesn't even have to do it with you, auto kicks in and you get owned. Even before the rage I wouldn't recommend regular DK flee/murdering against a berserker.

Instead what you are doing is flee'ing a room and spamming your murder macro in the new room while waiting for him to follow you in.

[marsd]

So I guess only you could pull it off. We need logs to show then, rather than a wall of text explaining the mechanics. You're only assuming as if you are very sure the zrkr is tracking you, when the zrkr is waiting for you with a wall of murders at that exact moment you were spamming murder...

[Davairus]

Well.. first of all assuming you don't just get ass-raped by dirt + sanc drop + flee lag, which is twice as lethal for a dark-knight than any other class left open to dirts (due to the complete lack of dodge). Inexperienced players always do that, and sometimes so do vets.

A berserker vs a dark-knight toe to toe is a one-sided assbeating.

50 berserker = 900+ hp
50 dark-knight = ~750 hp (less)

Overhead pwns dual wield (as in, you'd be completely trashed by the disarms + lagged defenceless.. so don't go there)
Barrage pwns shield block (against the matchup in which the berserker is capable of the most damage, especially from hobbled conc.. don't think you want to go there either)
Sideswipe pwns set parry (its basically an overhead..again..but its just taken from one-handed, so its the least of the 3 evils)

So you're pretty much going to sit there getting pounded and trying to get off whatever fireballs you can manage in between the sideswipe lags. The damage on fireball is pretty good, but if you're taking sideswipe lag then you aren't able to use it in its full capacity. From a straight-up, 100% health each sides finish, things are grim.

I'd say forget that weapon advantage stuff, better to just wield a two-handed spear for the next biggest set parry you can get with some guaranteed bonus vs dodge, keeping charge (use that to initiate), and then let the spells do the rest. Keep things simple. If you tie yourself up in combat too much then you'll end up forgetting sanc and die, the incentive (minor bonus vs parry) really isnt worth that. I'll tank anything a berserker's got before trying switcheroo and get smoked by my own sanc drops.

The best way to fight a berserker is rush him to create panic.

Grabbing an early headstart with charmie/invis and surprise charge closes the hp deficit and puts him into flee-mode (which means combat skills wont be used). If you know you can track fast then frenzy and do the best you can to chase him down and finish him off with dual whip murders. If he stops and rages as a last resort, rescue with charmie and charge, and that should be a wrap.

The counter there is to just keep detect invis up and use where pk a lot.

[marsd]

That'll be part of the DK mini guide for ya. Story closed, heh.


But what I think original poster wanted to know is how to pwn a dk with a berserker....

[Davairus]

I already spelled that out, pretty much just don't get ganked and use the combat skills.

[Slade]

Hell, theres an example on page 1 on invokation.. with the caveat that this isn't exactly what I'm talking about as in this case the berserker was in worse shape (a desperation rage where they aren't as likely to blindly follow you, as opposed to an early overconfident rage), but still...


470hp 392m 374mv
Your slash MUTILATES Kay!
Your slash DISEMBOWELS Kay!
Kay's stab decimates you!
You dodge Kay's stab.
Kay looks pretty hurt.

444hp 392m 374mv wear buc
You stop wielding a dream catcher.
You wear a small buckler as a shield.
You ready a set of wooden javelins behind your shield.
Kay looks pretty hurt.

444hp 392m 374mv
Kay's eyes suddenly burn like hot coals as he is gripped by insanity!
Kay has some big nasty wounds and scratches.

444hp 392m 374mv flee
You flee from combat!
You lost 10 experience points.
The Summit

[Exits: east west down]

444hp 392m 371mv murder Kay
scan all
They aren't here.

444hp 392m 371mv murder Kay
You scan all around.
You scan east.
*** Range 1 (east) ***
Kay is here.
You scan west.
You scan down.

444hp 392m 371mv They aren't here.

444hp 392m 371mv murder Kay
They aren't here.
Kay climbs in.

444hp 392m 371mv murder Kay
Your slash maims Kay!
Your slash maims Kay!
Kay has some big nasty wounds and scratches.




People don't rage to escape and survive, its about accepting that someone has a good chance of dying and pressing the action to make it the other guy. When you flee (often a sign of weakness) that will only compound their confidence. If you flee they will at least initially keep following you (its a possibility if they are observant enough to notice your tactic and adjust, but this is not a long battle strategy, its just something you'd do a few times anyway). They will be more than happy to follow you into your murder spam and get hit with their lessened defenses.

Anyway, if I was the DK, I'd not expect to be able to take the berserker in one pass. I'd try to wear him down a bit, run my ass off far enough away and vamp touch some mobs in between sleep ticks, then come back and hopefully finish him in the second go.

[Davairus]

Granted, using slash vs storm giant is a bit redundant, but I don't think you can really show a guy raging with no sanc to make a case. That guy's just super dumb. I wouldnt have even fled there since he made that error.

Its a lot easier to flee/murder when you have counter, dodge, fourth, and staff. Do it with a dark-knight and chances are the zerk will spam murders in, since counter isn't there. And in that small moment of movement lag before you can do anything after walking in, it'll go through. You'll win 50% of those flee/murders, those being the ones you manage while he's lagged from his own. So the net effect is null.

[Merindol]

Got some good idea's...
thanks to all who posted.

[Slade]

Just showing an example of flee and (bait via) spam murder against a rage as requested. Its not reflective of much of a real situation so I'm not making a case for anything, just showing the tactic at work. But, the zerker is raged so hes weak defensively, and stuck so he can't counter flee/murder you. However again if hes observant he'll probably get annoyed by walking into a couple murders, and hold his ground and spam his own, so its just a 1-3 trick pony, but a nice one at that.

How does staff factor in though? Wouldn't you want high offense rating weapons (or spear for anti-dodge, axe for anti-sb) to make the most of the murders?
edit - I took it as a general flee murder tip. If you meant staff just because berserker specifically doesnt have it then I get it.

[Davairus]

Staff because 1) berserker doesnt get staff, and parry is the only defense a berserker has raged... so it'll smoke him 2) two handed parry bonus vs dual wielding / shield smashing, on top of beef staff parry. The berserker cannot shield block while raged so you don't need an axe there either.

Yeah he doesnt need to counter-flee/murder, there *is* a counter to flee/murder and thats to spam your own murders in. That's all you have to do. Guy doesnt have to stand there like a pudding letting you do it, he could get you with his murder right after you enter and take the 1/4 second movement lag. He'll win at least half of them that way, if not more of them. It doesnt work against a warrior because warriors have "counter" to stop it, but, raged dual wielded murders are pretty deadly to dark-knight with no dodge. I really would not advise trying that unless he pulled a Kay and raged with no sanc. Even then fireball is fine til he remembers to get roar off.

[Vertas]

If he does rage, flee a bit and wait out just before his sanc gives out and engage with him. Zerkers can't remove shields or weapons, so they can't quaff unless you flee or they get relax. Of course the health increase will help them alot so be smart about that.

[Dahlin]

Actually, they can remove shields and weapons by throwing them, and then hold and quaff.

[_Clifton_]

Don't give credit where it isn't due. Most people wouldn't even think of it.