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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 12 hours, 19 mins.

hp/mana/move train change
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:47 am    Post subject:

I've increased the cooldown of medic scrolls by a tick. This should attack the burst heals better (i.e. rec scroll/sleep/rec scroll for a ton of hp regen immediately.. ) but my opinion is pretty much like someone stated, its a cabal power, go get the item.. and if you arent in a cabal to do that, then you just better put up with it, because being in cabals is supposed to give an edge - otherwise having to defend against everybody isnt worth it. I dont see how this issue really harms the typical strat against a shaman, which is to just unload too much damage on him to leave him able to cast his mals. That gets pretty easy to do once you are geared. Just keep the pressure on them.
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Davor



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:55 pm    Post subject:

Davairus wrote:
I dont see how this issue really harms the typical strat against a shaman, which is to just unload too much damage on him to leave him able to cast his mals. That gets pretty easy to do once you are geared. Just keep the pressure on them.


Absolutely agree on this one. If you can't put pressure on shaman medic scrolls are the least of your problem. As a regular shaman player worst case for shaman is when attrition is working against him. Making him struggle to keep his health at level with which he can feel comfortable to start casting while his spells slowly tick away without enhanced damage now leave only his relatively feeble melee abilities... Something like a pinata that regenerates.
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Slade
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:34 pm    Post subject:

That is the exact fight this is intended for, where you are getting beat on and using all of your disposable (not prots, etc) mana on healing. The pressure and damage can be enough to drain you, for which you shouldn't get the perk of medics to assist you with. If its that bad your enemy deserves to win. Now for this solution,
this harms clerics abillity to get this free healing a little bit (not a big deal, but harms much more everyone else who get (got) maximum value out of the scrolls every tick and for whom this was seen as a great and not terribly overpowered perk (mages, rogues, dk, etc). So, can't say this really helps anything..
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_Clifton_
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Location: your and you're are not the same. they're, there, and their are not the same. learn to english.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:07 am    Post subject:

Yeah, but that's all prep work. Farming the gold for medic scrolls is something that should be able to turn a loss into a win. If there's anything that needs to be nerfed, it's restoration wands (if they haven't).
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:39 pm    Post subject:

I wonder if this change (increase in medic scroll cooldown) was looked at from all classes standpoints, or just clerics/shaman. As a thief in a cabal, just about the only thing that allowed the fight to go more than 30 seconds and me dying were medic scrolls (instead it went maybe 2 minutes and I died)...but at least I had another minute and half of fight in me. With hobble essentially being the weapon ward for berserkers/warriors, there is very very very little a thief can do, especially when forced to defend a cabal. The damage to compete with a warrior or berserker or pretty much any other class is simply not there. The ability to pick and choose when to fight is also taken away by the simple fact that the cabal must be defended and it must be defended now. Ninja's are slightly less affected by this with their ability to use acupuncture to heal and vanish to create space between themselves and their enemies. I understand taking the extra ability to heal away from classes that already can heal...but was this decision a snap decision (as it appears very few people complained and then it was changed within days of said complaining)? Why didn't healers and shaman simply have scrolls taken away from them? Can't they cast nearly every spell that a scroll can produce...or use a staff or wand (why no extra cooldown on the wands (or staff) of restoration instead)?
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Erlwith



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:04 pm    Post subject:

I remember Slade bringing this up a while ago...


Anyway, the point of a fight against a cleric/mage is to keep the heat on them. If you let them get away for a second they're going to use those scrolls or word or cure and you've lost the kill 95% of the time. I really don't think the 1 tick version of the scrolls was overpowered. If you can't keep on a shaman, medic scrolls are the least of your worries, and if you can, than the 30 seconds between that 75 hp cure or so isn't going to save a shamans life. Over a long period of time sure it gives shamans a bit of an edge but that goes for every scroll class...

Not really a worthwhile change imo, and at the end of the day this just slightly gimps the classes like ninjas and thieves in a cabal. Though not that much since you can always just get a few energy scrolls for those inbetween times.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:05 pm    Post subject:

Obviously I have looked at it from other classes. Dk's lost cure light, ninja acupuncture got messed with, and hobble removes dodge, which dk's lost. Soo whats the deal guys? Healing is down, defences are down. Damage is up. That means we expect death. I dont want anyone healing back full too fast, or in the medic scroll case, recieving new/additional healing too often. Healers can be the most frustrating thing to fight against. I see medic scroll as something you may manage to recite occasionally as you run around for bonus healing. Its cooldown makes sure that's how you use it . There are other items and other classes to play if you want better heals than that. So if I get reports medic scroll is getting used in way that isnt its intended use, I should really be fixing it.

Also, if you are going to bring things up for me to look at, and then I subsequently find a bunch of people saying theyre not worthwhile to look at afterward, it makes it seem not worthwhile listening to you guys either.
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Slade
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:26 pm    Post subject:

Erlwith, It is an outright impossibility to put enough heat on a top level cleric, one on one, to get him outright without a confinement situation (and thus top level clerics will accordingly avoid confinement situations like the plague against any burst damage threats which is usually most people). It doesn't matter how good the tracking and damage is. Pip couldn't do it to me (full dam, vulns, rage potential), I probably couldn't do it to him, thats just life folks. Your pressure will simply dent their mana pool tremendously while they flee off and keep curing over and over (often one or two casts
before moving on to a new spot and repeating, all of this at light speed and while evading). This is the method of beating the damage beast, hope to outlast him, even when you can’t spare any mal casts. Now this is legitimate, if the cleric can pull this off they deserve the win. But as I was saying if the pressure is good enough to damage them so hard, (essentially we are talking about someone so good you can’t catch a single tick against them ~ you are in constant flight and heal mode while jabbing in some murders of your own every now and then) consistently, and for so long that they wipe their mana pool and can’t keep up, then the cleric deserves to drop and doesn’t need the free heals to help out. If their natural healing can’t cover it (already considerable to say the least), they should be over with. If they can pull it off within their normal bounds, good for them.

Go with the numnuts over me if you want. Vanguard (not to advertise since AR is great, but it’s a MMO with some smarts and real combat complexity), table tennis, and street fighter are working out for me right now. I’m sure I’ll be back in like two months to brutalize everyone again. Only with increasingly less guilt like on the last char due to how stubbornly retarded everyone is. GL!
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Erlwith



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:00 am    Post subject:

Slade's opinion is that it's too beef, some of us feel otherwise. At the end of the day I don't think it does that much for or against clerics and so I appreciate the effort either way to try and balance things out. It was after all *just* Slade that made this complaint.
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jeoparty



Joined: 20 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:33 am    Post subject:

I don't know if I'd call it a complaint. I'm in agreement with what he's said.
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Kalist19
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Joined: 19 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:34 am    Post subject:

Slade wrote:
Erlwith, It is an outright impossibility to put enough heat on a top level cleric, one on one, to get him outright without a confinement situation (and thus top level clerics will accordingly avoid confinement situations like the plague against any burst damage threats which is usually most people). It doesn't matter how good the tracking and damage is. Pip couldn't do it to me (full dam, vulns, rage potential), I probably couldn't do it to him, thats just life folks. Your pressure will simply dent their mana pool tremendously while they flee off and keep curing over and over (often one or two casts
before moving on to a new spot and repeating, all of this at light speed and while evading). This is the method of beating the damage beast, hope to outlast him, even when you can’t spare any mal casts. Now this is legitimate, if the cleric can pull this off they deserve the win. But as I was saying if the pressure is good enough to damage them so hard, (essentially we are talking about someone so good you can’t catch a single tick against them ~ you are in constant flight and heal mode while jabbing in some murders of your own every now and then) consistently, and for so long that they wipe their mana pool and can’t keep up, then the cleric deserves to drop and doesn’t need the free heals to help out. If their natural healing can’t cover it (already considerable to say the least), they should be over with. If they can pull it off within their normal bounds, good for them.

Go with the numnuts over me if you want. Vanguard (not to advertise since AR is great, but it’s a MMO with some smarts and real combat complexity), table tennis, and street fighter are working out for me right now. I’m sure I’ll be back in like two months to brutalize everyone again. Only with increasingly less guilt like on the last char due to how stubbornly retarded everyone is. GL!


Good post. I agree with slade.
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Slade
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:07 am    Post subject:

Conditionality is another way to do it if can be done.


When under any kind of confinement:
Clerics get something harsh like a 6 rounds cooldown for using medic scroll
Everyone else gets a 0 rounds cooldown

When not under confinement:
Clerics get something harsh like a 6 rounds cooldown for using medic scroll
Everyone else gets a 0-1 rounds (random between the two) cooldown


Thats a pretty safe (less controversial, but still helpful), no brainer update to me.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:46 am    Post subject:

I think we're missing the point here. I've changed medic scrolls to prevent quick bursts of heal. IMO that was what we originally had in mind for them. It doesnt (and medic scroll doesnt) affect shamans very much since they always have their easy ford/enfeeblement fallbacks. They have tons of mana and good regen, unless you were an idiot who rolled fire giant, there simply isnt a need . There isnt a "well-played" shaman that I havent been able to kill on this game yet, and if it was a fire giant, I would smash him easily with a frostbrand. Get a group if you can't do it by yourself (e.g. too undergeared), and quit complaining about them. Once the shaman is unloaded you won't be seeing him again for a while. - And I am not going to accept "he can just quit" as a defence because you can also just "log on" fully sanced/spelled whatever outside his cabal when he resurfaces. Man, give me one of those geared warriors you guys have created so many times, and I promise you wont see a shaman in more than red dragon again until I feel like deleting it.
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RebornShadows



Joined: 21 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:03 am    Post subject:

dav i say you roll a warrior and do that to all the shamans would be fun to watch because well i dont play shamans i suck even worse with one than with bankushin
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Kalist19
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Joined: 19 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:15 pm    Post subject:

Davairus wrote:
I think we're missing the point here. I've changed medic scrolls to prevent quick bursts of heal. IMO that was what we originally had in mind for them. It doesnt (and medic scroll doesnt) affect shamans very much since they always have their easy ford/enfeeblement fallbacks. They have tons of mana and good regen, unless you were an idiot who rolled fire giant, there simply isnt a need . There isnt a "well-played" shaman that I havent been able to kill on this game yet, and if it was a fire giant, I would smash him easily with a frostbrand. Get a group if you can't do it by yourself (e.g. too undergeared), and quit complaining about them. Once the shaman is unloaded you won't be seeing him again for a while. - And I am not going to accept "he can just quit" as a defence because you can also just "log on" fully sanced/spelled whatever outside his cabal when he resurfaces. Man, give me one of those geared warriors you guys have created so many times, and I promise you wont see a shaman in more than red dragon again until I feel like deleting it.



Then you really, really, really, should have made a character to fight Quar. Uncontested best shaman we've seen in the past few years. I've had drawn out fights with him where by all rights due to all the healing he was forced to do he SHOULD NOT have been able to maintain all of his protective spells. Turns out all he was doing was using medics for healing and saving his mana for protectives. Even confined he just spams medics for the same reasons. Faster, heal well, and prevents him from winding up being drained of mana.

As a shaman you really have to watch your mana in a drawn out fight. A shaman with no mana is going to have spells drop and have no way to put them back up. A shaman who doesn't have to worry about that because he doesn't even have to practice cure critical due to medic scrolls is going to be untouchable.

I bet it won't even be a problem now that Quar has deleted. Don't know if the current guys will hoard/utilize the medics as effectively, but god knows they'll try.

Again, dav, you missed your shot to come back and prove your superiority...that sucks.
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Erlwith



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:28 pm    Post subject:

You can't spam medics because there is a 30 second cool down, now a 60 second as I understand. If medic scrolls keep a shaman alive in a confinement situation there's a problem with you, not the scrolls imo. I had a couple of battles with Quar and let me tell you, a 7/7 icicle and icestorm is much scarier than medic scrolls, and this is without rares. Oh and... fire giants suck at reading scrolls don't they? I really don't think the reason people lost against Quar was because of medic scrolls, I think it is because Slade is one of the better players who uses every aspect of a class to his advantage. And I think because he can avoid you for 30 seconds isn't a good reason to nerf scrolls. Again.... take the item. Do it before they log in, or after they log out. Nerf the whole cabal and wait for them to come. I think this is a much easier, more logical and faster (not to mention, already instituted) way to nerf medic scrolls than recoding them. However, with all that said, 60 seconds is fine on medic scrolls imo.
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Ceridwel
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:18 am    Post subject:

Erlwith wrote:
...nerf....


What does nerf mean?
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Ceridwel
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:22 am    Post subject:

..And, where does one get medic scrolls?
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Erlwith



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:30 am    Post subject:

Nerf=weaken.

Medic scrolls = cabal supplier. (pawn shop, justice path, etc.)
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:51 am    Post subject:

Far too many conflicting report about medic scroll here. Basically you are immortalizing the beast, like youre saying he can just run endlessly conserving mana with scrolls and saving it for spells. But you can team up with other players with dirt/dispel, it doesnt have to be fair. Most of my fights were never fair. If you want a 50% chance to lose, by all means, go fight fairly. You have to be fighting unfair battle all the time to build up massive win-loss efficiency ratios, and when you do that, people should eventually wise up and team up on you, so I think its your fault ... not the fault of "medic scrolls". This is a multiplayer game so dont make yourself a pinata for somebody in great gear. Go grab one of the many keepers to take him down a peg for you, for instance.
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