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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 15 hours, 29 mins.

Some Keeper updates.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:12 am    Post subject: Some Keeper updates.

In hindsight I shouldn't have tried to complete this work on the tail-end of a bunch of combat changes, and then got busy with school, but what's done is done. Here are the updates.


item counting :- Initially I felt concerned that people would try shady things like giving items to other players to get them flagged, which was a bit silly of me because Keepers talk before they kill (at least that's what I observed). So the inventory/sack items now count.

item valuation: I used to base this directly off levels, which made it difficult to decide what totals are reasonable for character, so I changed to a 3 point system (uniques 3, good rares 2, pitiful rares/gambles 1) with some subtelties. I am observing this presently to make sure it is tuned right. My intent is to increase the amount of rares allowed so that it isnt too much of a PITA for keepers and cause them to have no friends, etc.


atonement : i decided that player complaints about atonement were wrong, though I did see some problems myself. What I have done is essentially removed the need to type the skill, it will just apply to the target whenever a Keeper starts fighting him (once only), and it will drop off within a minute of leaving combat. And it has been returned to being a decent skill. Talk to the hand...

More updates will be following for the Keepers after I take a break to reflect on what I want to do about their role in the cabal scene (which IMO is more important to the game than this rare junk).
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:58 pm    Post subject:

I actually love the idea of having inventory items count because that annuls the whole removing your rares the second you see a Keeper show his face so that he hopefully won't bother you bit.

I don't know about the automatic atonement though. I mean, I think a Keeper should still have the option as to whether or not he wants to atone. I remember hearing some Keepers talking about how their targets would flee and run away the second they got atoned and making it automatic gives the Keeper no choice. I don't know, I just think Keepers should have the right to choose.
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rabidgecko



Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 194

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:25 pm    Post subject:

Thanks, Dav
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Erlwith



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1626

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:45 pm    Post subject:

Ergorion wrote:
I actually love the idea of having inventory items count because that annuls the whole removing your rares the second you see a Keeper show his face so that he hopefully won't bother you bit.

I don't know about the automatic atonement though. I mean, I think a Keeper should still have the option as to whether or not he wants to atone. I remember hearing some Keepers talking about how their targets would flee and run away the second they got atoned and making it automatic gives the Keeper no choice. I don't know, I just think Keepers should have the right to choose.


The only reason a Keeper would have ever not used atonement is because of the lag time involved. Without the lag time, and with it being automatic it resolves that issue - it also circumvents any issue with flee/waiting off atonement, like 90% of people did when I had a Keeper.

Now we'll just see more pussies quitting out before they even get engaged is all.
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Erlwith



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:05 pm    Post subject:

Oh, BTW, great update Dav. Hope to see more.
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Ceridwel
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Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:19 am    Post subject:

Very cool to see an update put in. You DO love us!
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:10 am    Post subject:

You guys can forget bickering with me about atonement. I have no interest in watering down the powers just to quell whining about the skills. It will be kept the way I want it, period. I may change my mind about the mechanics/numbers later IF it looks like its sticking out as a problem in relation to all the other powers in cabals, but essentially its still going to keep on making a Keepers duty considerably easier - like its supposed to. Or why bother even joining Keepers? Save your bitching for the usual logboard-angst "wah special guards suck" "stallion mv are too strong" etc. If you are in a cabal then you should be happy enough with your own powers/priviliges to not be complaining about the powers of other cabals. For those of you not in cabals, it should be understood that players join cabals to have access to these kinds of extra valuable skils and put up with some extra big problems for that. I am not going to waste my time on debating this skill again and again when that is the only argument I will ever need to trot out to support a strong cabal skill. If you want an atonement change you'd better be able to convince me why its stronger than special guards, or abducts, or holy weapons with stallions.

Now that said, I am not that happy with the idea of Keepers feeling focused primarily on these overgeared issues. In the near future it will *possibly* only flag you a danger when you have actually attacked somebody while you're "overgeared" (players, cabals, probably not much more than that), so that you can try to maintain a low profile. This does not mean that Keepers will see players with rares and do nothing about it. I certainly do not want to see them levelling with players like that. It just means it will give Keepers an opportunity to look for less influential people to fight when they get bored, instead of being force-fed targets as if it was a black-and-white issue. Although you WILL find the flag much more persistent once you get noticed doing something particularly shady, i.e., no more stashing eq somewhere type absurdities. That's a flaw which indicates it must change. Keepers will come and collect your head for your offense in the same manner as a Warlord's deathmark. (You may have noticed this cabal parallels with some Warlord philosophies, if you were observant). That's not going to be the case for the time being though, because, as I've said, I am waiting to see if the measurements are fair, and for that I require more data. It will be changing soon.

The direction we are going is to have Keepers more integrated in with the "swing of power" between cabals. This is taking some time because there are a lot of variables to consider, beyond the obvious "most members & most hours", its clear to me that activity depends on how time is being spent - the way we are measuring it simply does not provide an accurate measurement. Which cabal currently has the most gear makes a big difference to where the power swings to, and that goes back and forth regardless of membership growth or activity spikes. Hopefully that will be figured out within a week or two. In particular I am looking for ways to gauge that Justice is the strong cabal - other cabals are much easier to tell because they actually bother to do some cabal raiding. Justice, when strong, tends to just do nothing and it actually stagnates the game when a Justice is active and doing it. They will obviously get geared and end up apprehending players who get wanted, thus recognisable as dangerous individuals, but that isn't quite as motivating for Keepers to go smacking around Justices as it is to have an activity-based message in the motd saying "Keepers are currently killing Justices".. That's all I am thinking on for now.


Last edited by Davairus on Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:43 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Erlwith



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1626

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:25 pm    Post subject:

Here's a thought. A secondary (invisible) flag for Keepers for cabal members who combined have too many team kills, a high pk ratio, too many times being flagged a danger in the past xxx time, length of time the cabal members have been a danger combined, etc. (just random thoughts). Once the cabal has a 3+ count of these flagged members the cabal now is the Keeper target. This flag would work sort of opposite to the mercenary system in that it would only be active if the cabal was not outnumbered, or it could be GREY rather than RED if the cabal is outnumbered.

Another idea if that is too complicated is just to let Keepers see what cabal is the most dangerous in what areas. Let them use their best judgement in the moment/overall as to what cabal they should be fighting.
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Erlwith



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1626

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:31 pm    Post subject:

Whhhy can't we edit on this forum????????
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 691

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:44 pm    Post subject:

I think you have some good ideas here in regards to the Keepers Erl and Dav. I love that the wheels of change are moving. On a side note, I love your signature line Erlwith. Thanks for putting in the work Dav and taking care of some of the known issues with Keepers. Power to the people!! Wink
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Faelon
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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Location: Your moms house.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:59 pm    Post subject:

I think these changes are going to move keepers up in the world. I was always worried about atonement personally, but it is what it is.

I don't buy the argument that it is a bad thing to flee off atonement. Under that same logic you could say that deter should be automatic in combat for shamans because people could just run it off. I am NOT saying that I disagree with the change, simply that this line of reasoning doesn't jive with me personally.

All in all, good changes.
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Erlwith



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:00 am    Post subject:

[quote="Faelon"]
I don't buy the argument that it is a bad thing to flee off atonement. Under that same logic you could say that deter should be automatic in combat for shamans because people could just run it off.

Deteriorate is not a cabal skill.
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Groq
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 500
Location: Downstate NY

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:01 am    Post subject:

Really appreciate it, as we all do i'm sure.
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Faelon
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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Location: Your moms house.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:20 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Deteriorate is not a cabal skill.


Was this supposed to be a rejoinder to my opinion? Or just a random statement of fact?
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RebornShadows



Joined: 21 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:21 am    Post subject:

that was him trying to sound smart by saying something everyone knows.
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Erlwith



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1626

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:14 am    Post subject:

Do I really need to explain the difference between a spell (deteriorate) and a cabal skill (atonement) and how retarded the arguement is that if deteriorate ticks off then atonement should too? I'm not arguing either side, just how nonfactor your point is.

Cabal skills and class spells/skills serve different purposes entirely. Apples and oranges.
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RebornShadows



Joined: 21 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:05 am    Post subject:

well you missed the context of how it was used of course a class spell is different than a cabal power but people do flee from aton just like people flee from deter. if you read his whole post you will note that he said
Quote:
I am NOT saying that I disagree with the change, simply that this line of reasoning doesn't jive with me personally.


There was no need for you to open your mouth to say deter is not a cabal power it was rather pointless.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:19 am    Post subject:

fleeing away from Keepers w/ full rares and returning to bash a much inferior-equipped opponent .... yeah that isnt happening
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kento
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Joined: 03 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:04 am    Post subject:

Reborn in his infinite wisdom strikes again......................................
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Faelon
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:17 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Cabal skills and class spells/skills serve different purposes entirely. Apples and oranges.


So both sets of skills do not in fact hinder/harm/enhance either the other player or ones person? Surely I am confused. Here I thought that they were both skills, granted by ones allegiance to various factions and how dedicated/powerful one is.

The only difference between a cabal skill and a guild skill is simply what group you are a part of. Cabal skills are a reward for dedication and your own skillful behavior. Yes they do serve different purposes, much in the same way flight and sanctuary serve different purposes. As far as whether the word cabal or guild is before skill makes absolutely no difference.

Quote:
fleeing away from Keepers w/ full rares and returning to bash a much inferior-equipped opponent .... yeah that isnt happening


Hence; recast. Now I am not aware if there is a lag time for this spell/skill, I am going to assume there isn't. Making the skill/spell automatic is simply an attempt to make the playing field more level, I have no issue with that personally. I do think that time will tell if this levels the playing field, or tilts in the advantage of a supposedly more skilled group of players.

Again, all of the above is my opinion on the situation. I enjoy argumentation and debate, so swing away.
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