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What's the logic behind evil Justices?
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Ceridwel
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:47 pm    Post subject: What's the logic behind evil Justices?

A short time ago there were a couple of evil Justices in the game. It got me thinking, how can a Justice be evil? A justice must uphold the law, so wouldn't someone who is evil rightly break the law at their whim to suit their means to an end? Or am I confusing that with chaotic. I was trying to think of a 'real-world' example of an evil justice. Closest I could get was the Sheriff of Nottinghame from Robin Hood, but even then its a stretch.

Anyways, thought this might be an interesting discussion. Hopefully someone can edumacate me here.
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Garion



Joined: 09 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:01 pm    Post subject:

"Legal is not the same as ethical."

~idk if he said it first, but I heard it from mi Padre.

Think of a country that has a weird law. Like allowing cow fucking in India. Some of us would consider that unethical, but it is legal. Unethical=evil. Legal=lawful. Wink Hope that makes sense.

If you need further illustration, just observe the cops they got where I live. (went to jail for not having tags on a kind of dirt bike that can't even have tags.) Rolling Eyes
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Olyn
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:39 pm    Post subject:

lawful evil = tyranny or domination
care little for freedom
use laws for personal gain

real life examples:
Mussolini
Hitler
mcCarthy
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Erlwith



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:07 pm    Post subject:

Look at the number of corrupt law enforcement officials in any society. I think evil Justices are a great dynamic, but I think because of the strict rules, corruption is pretty much impossible and so also the RP that could come with it. It'd be cool if someone paid a Justice to be out of town right during an attack or something - but if an imm is snooping (which they often are), or just checked the logs you'd be out before you could count your e-gold. There are all sorts of avenues that evil Justices just aren't able to pursue that I think would make for fun times. I doubt there'd be any neutral justices left tbh. I'm just rambling.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:17 pm    Post subject:

Of course the obvious gameplay reason is so that there's sometimes a serious tension between Knights and Justices, instead of it just always being a Legion pile-on.
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Arishel



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:21 pm    Post subject:

And that my friend is why Keepers have come into the mix! Yeehaw chicken paw! Gotta two on two pile on! Woohoo!
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Mandor



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:42 pm    Post subject:

Erlwith wrote:
Look at the number of corrupt law enforcement officials in any society. I think evil Justices are a great dynamic, but I think because of the strict rules, corruption is pretty much impossible and so also the RP that could come with it. It'd be cool if someone paid a Justice to be out of town right during an attack or something - but if an imm is snooping (which they often are), or just checked the logs you'd be out before you could count your e-gold. There are all sorts of avenues that evil Justices just aren't able to pursue that I think would make for fun times. I doubt there'd be any neutral justices left tbh. I'm just rambling.


Corruption comes in two flavors. Illegal, which would be against the Justice codes, and Legal. Illegal is abusing power to gain something through means that is otherwise illegal to do so, but your power can get it for you through channels that protect you. Legal is lobbyists paying some government person to pass a law that allows toxic waste to be dumped in some people's back yards. Once its passed, its entirely legal, no matter whether it causes deformities and such in the local population. Lobbyist is only one version of legal corruption.
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_Clifton_
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:20 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the logic behind evil Justices?

iolo wrote:
A short time ago there were a couple of evil Justices in the game. It got me thinking, how can a Justice be evil? A justice must uphold the law, so wouldn't someone who is evil rightly break the law at their whim to suit their means to an end? Or am I confusing that with chaotic. I was trying to think of a 'real-world' example of an evil justice. Closest I could get was the Sheriff of Nottinghame from Robin Hood, but even then its a stretch.

Anyways, thought this might be an interesting discussion. Hopefully someone can edumacate me here.


Justice (and the more general concept of law) really is just a certain set of rules to follow and as long as you follow those rules, you are being obedient. The theory behind this is that obedience to law promotes order and therefore provides a more harmonious society.

The notion of good versus evil is more about intention, which can actually be distorted any which way. Robin Hood would be chaotic good. Absolute disregard for authority figure (which is basically what law is), but his intentions are for the greater good. I suppose if you were one of the rich fellows getting effectively mugged, you'd view him as chaotic evil (because you're a republican and he's a socialist - goddamn commies).

An evil justice might be the cop that just pulled you over going 93 in a 70 along I70. Now lets say your name just happens to be Amdorin, and you kinda look like you're the type of person people would lock their car doors around (because you're black). This cop, when he first stepped out, had no intention of writing you a tactic. He could've let you off with a warning on a whim. But then he sees you, and you're black! Now he's thinking.. damn, that dude might've slept with my daughter. So now he's writing you a ticket not cause of anything that you've done, but simply because he decided he's gonna be malicious. Voila, evil justice following the law but with personal gain. Or maybe you just shouldn't have slept with his daughter...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0v5nd1bJXM
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Ceridwel
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:27 am    Post subject:

This all makes sense. Thanks for the replies.
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divsky
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:50 am    Post subject:

Really? You've never met a cop who was a heartless, evil bastard? They're out there, trust me. You just need to care more about enforcing the word of the law than the actual meaning behind it.
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Kalist19
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am    Post subject:

Evil Justices are something that I don't really understand either. I played a shaman justice once and wound up getting booted because I was trying to do an 'evil, domineering, tyranny' sort of thing by charging people protection money for out of town (i.e. your protection is free in seringale, but you have to pay me to leave you alone outside of the city). Basically I wanted to look kind of tyrannical and corrupt while sticking to the law and upholding it 100%. In the end I got booted because 'I looked corrupt and even though I wasn't, justices have to appear to be perfect and set a good example'.

That leads me to wonder, what the hell is the difference in RP between an evil justice, a neutral justice? Obviously the neutral can't just go pwning healers, but that's a game mechanic, not rp (i.e. neutrals cant go pwn goods while it's fine for evils to do so). There's really not a lot of room to experiment with roleplay for evil justices because you have such a strict ideal to uphold (i.e. honesty, conscienciousness, fairness, etc). I'm not saying that you can't try to find something interesting to do (Deiminos was quite an interesting character - though I thik he ran into some trouble for his RP as well) but odds are that 9 times out of 10 you will wind up with an evil justice with no unique rp who just went evil so he can pwn healers.

Just gets boring seeing people do stuff the same way over and over.

Rant aside, it's probably good to have evil justices because like it was said above, that kind of breaks up the legion vs justice thing to legion/knight vs justice.
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Mandor



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:43 am    Post subject:

Well just google how to roleplay lawful evil, that should give a lot of insight.

charging people money to not attack them is fine to me, except like I said somewhere else, in how it makes any sense to have shaman as justice, Shaman are chaos and death bringers. Their Roleplay is to bring others down and make them crazy gibbering wrecks. That doesn't work so well if everyone's in seringale following the rules. That also doesn't work so well if you're another Deiminos and thus are killing people and bringing law breaking into town by the very fact of your existence. So your existence alone as an evil justice is asking for chaos to come to Seringale, from all other cabals and from uncaballed goodies.

Charging people money itself, only bad if you say you will not attack them, and then attack them right after they pay you. that goes against the tenets of a lawful, such as upholding words and contracts.

evil justices really have to behave neutrally. There is no room for evil decisions and stronghandedness. people might say in what to return after confiscation, but since its pretty much to up to the sole discretion of the individual justice, both the neutral and evil justice could return little to nothing, if only for different intent and reasons, such as a neutral thinks it will preserve peace not to give any back, and an evil just wants to screw them over and hoard it. But in the end, the outcome isn't different, so being evil or neutral isn't different in Justice.

Kalist, the knight vs legion vs justice triad would still exist if justices were solely neutral, because a legion would take advantage of a justice in town to get the knight to attack, such as having the cabal item and hanging about in town to let the knight catch him, getting the knight wanted and then taking the cross home while laughing. This causes a knight to die by a justice, which causes anathema, which causes more knights to kill the justice, which either causes intruder or more wanteds. ANd legion would go after justice simply because they're supposed to dominate all, which kinda makes it really hard with keepers around Iguess, but there it is.
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FenixMajere



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:56 am    Post subject:

People holding cabal items can b attacked by anyone while they are in town because they themselves are bringing chaos into the city and therefore is not protected by the law.

It helps to read help law
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Mandor



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:35 am    Post subject:

or a legion can run into seringale when being attacked and then get the knight wanted, by being anathema and the knight cant turn away.

whatever okay, there's always a way.

you can argue that being an evil justice in itself is bringing chaos into Seringale, since a Knight will want to "purge" them, yet they don't get to be freely attacked.
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Nyub101
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:25 am    Post subject:

Iolo check out the help files that describe what each one is. The helpfiles in game are:

help neutral evil short
help lawful evil short
help chaotic evil short

I don't know why the 'short' is part of the helpfile, but it is. Hope this helps.
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Devin_Smoth



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:54 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Evil Justices are something that I don't really understand either. I played a shaman justice once and wound up getting booted because I was trying to do an 'evil, domineering, tyranny' sort of thing by charging people protection money for out of town (i.e. your protection is free in seringale, but you have to pay me to leave you alone outside of the city). Basically I wanted to look kind of tyrannical and corrupt while sticking to the law and upholding it 100%. In the end I got booted because 'I looked corrupt and even though I wasn't, justices have to appear to be perfect and set a good example'


Kalist, that was you? I never knew that... interesting...

And yes, the idea of evil Justices is odd... but do you really there to be another entirely Neutral only cabal?
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Mandor



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:40 am    Post subject:

Devin_Smoth wrote:
Quote:
Evil Justices are something that I don't really understand either. I played a shaman justice once and wound up getting booted because I was trying to do an 'evil, domineering, tyranny' sort of thing by charging people protection money for out of town (i.e. your protection is free in seringale, but you have to pay me to leave you alone outside of the city). Basically I wanted to look kind of tyrannical and corrupt while sticking to the law and upholding it 100%. In the end I got booted because 'I looked corrupt and even though I wasn't, justices have to appear to be perfect and set a good example'


Kalist, that was you? I never knew that... interesting...

And yes, the idea of evil Justices is odd... but do you really there to be another entirely Neutral only cabal?


they're basically neutral anyway, or they're doing things "that invite chaos into town" and therefore get them uninducted.
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Vhrael
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:06 pm    Post subject:

I've always thought that the concept of a corrupt/"evil" Justice was an interesting one, like "Pay me 5k and I'll leave town so you can PK the healer" type stuff. The problem is that you can't use Justice powers/laws to build that RP around, because (in my opinion) Justice has the most global impact on other players' characters out of all the cabals. <ANATHEMA>, (CONTRACTED) and (UNCOMPLIANT) don't have a special guard, Dagnir, Tir, or gate guards equivalent (to the same extreme at least) as being intruder, wanted or especially (BOUNTIED) does.

That being said, shaman's really the only priest/healing class that Justice has available. If the cookie-cutter evil Justice RP bothers anyone, we can close the availability of evils in Justice and watch them rely on just Defenders/Restorers and see how quickly Justice flounders...
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bassball
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:09 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
That being said, shaman's really the only priest/healing class that Justice has available



Yeah. That's why I always thought evil Justices kinda had to be...
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Mandor



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:35 pm    Post subject:

Vhrael wrote:
I've always thought that the concept of a corrupt/"evil" Justice was an interesting one, like "Pay me 5k and I'll leave town so you can PK the healer" type stuff.

That being said, shaman's really the only priest/healing class that Justice has available. If the cookie-cutter evil Justice RP bothers anyone, we can close the availability of evils in Justice and watch them rely on just Defenders/Restorers and see how quickly Justice flounders...


the first part would actually be against the rules because it'll fall under the umbrella of "inviting chaos into seringale" and being against the gods of order.

the second actually sounds like a good idea. they've already got a guard. Twisted Evil

thats another reason I came up wuith the idea of a generic cleric. something that doesn't follow any particular path, making it ideal for justice or keeper, but lacking the protection spell or anti-alignment spells.
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