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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 12 hours.

Some Keepers news & Treant Thews
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:33 pm    Post subject: Some Keepers news & Treant Thews

The Keepers have been steadily worked on. I will provide some details of the changes so far, the future changes will not be posted about on the forums, but there will be some more.

I. Treant Thews will now be accompanied by a *moderate* fire vulnerability

The offensive attributes of the set bonus, hp, con boost, etc, are not affected. The intent is to provide a motivation to get progressively better gear, i.e. rares/gambling, while recognising that TT has an important function as a starting point in (both cabal and uncaballed) re-equipping. An important consequence of a vuln on TT is the effect on warrior, this being a popular class for us. A warrior race like a dwarf may seem able to tank the vuln, but fiery daggers go straight through his favored weapons. Lower health races will not enjoy this at all. Keep in mind there are more sources of fire vuln - fireballs, flame arrows, etc - not to mention that some of the highest ave magic weapons in the game do fire-based damage - so I'd say its the worst thing to have, worse even than vamp vuln, even if it is only a moderate one.

II. Keepers get a gambled items revamping

This follows from nerfing TT across the board. Rather than have 1 shop for Keepers to gamble at, they have a series of shops to experiement at for their gambled items. These will yield their desirable items much quicker than regular gambling shops, however, there will still be some time/gold investments, and this ensures they remain a step below evermore & forging. In other words, TT is "out", some (relaxed) gambling is "in", depending on what the player feels like. As Keepers are doing without rares to begin with, it makes more sense to give them slightly easier gambling - although it is fallible and neutrals could easily choose to just pick chaotic for the wild attacks.

I recognise that you will feel jealousy about the quick gambling as a non-Keeper, but I think you will need to try a Keeper for yourself and see how rough it is against players who are packing full rares against your "bare necessities"... we've nerfed TT, but we still need these guys to be viable, and I don't want to beef atonement/other cabal powers for that. While other cabals are acquiring gear from pk (even cross alignment with tainted sacrifice), pulling justice shields out of their ass, etc, the Keepers can't even equip your loot. I think that gambling is an interesting and well-developed aside to the rare acquisition and a natural fit for Keepers to use internally, and I also recognise that people who join the cabals don't want to give up so much time to grind gold endlessly to beef out their set, with their duties looming.

III. The pendulum of power recieves a tune-up

You will see this in the motd when you login, e.g. "The Iron Fist of Law shall reach far and wide. " There is sort of a scales in the background that measures activity and strength in terms of skill/numbers, and the scales are moved even further by pkilling and recieive a particularly large (temporary) swing for item capture. Keepers are visibly reminded that their cabal *is* AT WAR (i.e. gangbanging expected, precedence over other duties is those battles) with whoever's gotten ahead of the other cabals on this scale, as well as receive some skill to enable them to carry out the duty that requires. You may want to think about this last point when you join an already bloated cabal. The Keepers will be attracted to cabals which have abnormally large numbers of players. Keepers should consider restoring the pendulum's balance quite a bit more important than chasing around some elf healer, they should even go grab the item of that cabal and sit on it, slaughter them ,etc. I'll compare it to a Legion going around trying to make people get protection with contracted players online.

Note that the pendulum points out which cabal they are supposed to be at war against - it does not follow that Keepers should help the other cabals to compensate. There is a "floor" that Keepers will respect before they even get involved, in the same way as there is with the rare item stuff, and if they give other cabals direct help, it will end up compromised.

Iv. More refinements on "gear scoring"

I've decided speciifically that items providing sizeable contributions to hit/dam (e.g. 4 dam items) are making more trouble than their stats theoretically give away, penalized them more strictly as result. This should make it more difficult to fly under the radar with a good hit/dam. I think that this system is now very reliable against armor. There is a bit more work to do on weapon ratings, which I am still stuck in the process of solving. Its just a matter of determining what a weapon really contributes to your damage when you consider there's 16 other places to put gear in, and its not that easy to decide.

V. Additional cabal powers

As i've mentioned already in other threads, I didn't have a big problem with atonement's strength, and actually preferred the simplicity much like Justi'ce simple calling for a guard.. but I did feel that it could be misconstrued as having too many eggs in one basket. So as part of the makeover, atonement has been cut back on (its still good) to make room for a more varied, arguable more useful, set of powers. These skills are new - expect controversy and a nerf or two if they aren't shaking out as well as I've hoped for, and expect the usual whining that certain people do about everything that kills them.


There is a bit more I wanted to include - but it's not really pressing us too badly, and in any event I think these are the issues that needed the scrutiny.


Last edited by Davairus on Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Mandor



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:49 pm    Post subject:

wow... TT got raped. lame.
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Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:58 pm    Post subject:

Great stuff, Dav Smile

I really like the fire vuln to thews. Very fitting and a much needed balance to thews. I mean the lack of flexibility was one thing, but that's just not enough it seems to get people moving towards other stuff (me included).

Keep up the good work mang!
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bassball
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:59 pm    Post subject:

Ouch. Not gonna lie. That's probably gonna hurt.

Quote:
A warrior race like a dwarf


And maybe it was supposed to. lol

But it'll spice things up I guess, and in the end, that's all we can ask for.

Thanks for working hard Dav.
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Vhrael
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:05 am    Post subject: Re: Some Keepers news & Treant Thews

Davairus wrote:
I. Treant Thews will now be accompanied by a *moderate* fire vulnerability

Mandor wrote:
wow... TT got raped. lame.

Davairus wrote:
The intent is to provide a motivation to get progressively better gear, i.e. rares/gambling

Seriously, Mandor?
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Ergorion



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:06 am    Post subject:

bassball wrote:
Ouch. Not gonna lie. That's probably gonna hurt.

Quote:
A warrior race like a dwarf


And maybe it was supposed to. lol

But it'll spice things up I guess, and in the end, that's all we can ask for.

Thanks for working hard Dav.


How does this vuln work with the natural dwarven resistance to magical damage? I mean, will it completely bypass the resistance or will the resistance moderate the vulnerability even more?
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Mandor



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:29 am    Post subject:

Ergorion wrote:
bassball wrote:
Ouch. Not gonna lie. That's probably gonna hurt.

Quote:
A warrior race like a dwarf


And maybe it was supposed to. lol

But it'll spice things up I guess, and in the end, that's all we can ask for.

Thanks for working hard Dav.


How does this vuln work with the natural dwarven resistance to magical damage? I mean, will it completely bypass the resistance or will the resistance moderate the vulnerability even more?


Im guessing it would have to be a powerful enough vuln to overcompensate for the dwarf resistance, so as to make the vuln still work on dwarves. Therefor, its going to be a big vuln.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:36 am    Post subject:

There's no need to guess - I already said it was moderate. Vulns are either strong, moderate, or weak. I felt that strong would be too much and weak too little to be paid attention to. Thus chose a moderate vuln.

Xerties understood it.. I just want you to move onto other gear, instead of stay in TT with 2 gambled rings.
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Mandor



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:41 am    Post subject:

Oh I wasnt aware it was just between three grades, and not like 14(moderate) or 15 (moderate) or 20(high) etc.
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Erlwith



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:45 am    Post subject:

got to agree with xerties. on all my keepers and neutrals, never even considered switching off thews unless i needed saves and even then I'd go for -dex over losing thews.
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kieros



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:10 am    Post subject:

i don't see how this made a difference to keepers. Dwarf vuln is worse than the fire vuln so why would you care. Plus what weapons are out there that are av 21 and higher that do fire damage. Maybe durindel and that polearm that does holy fire? so two unique weapons that you have to worry about. I really doubt wielding a flame sword and dualing a fiery will make a big difference. Also this doesn't affect beast rangers since they can just use barkskin to cheese off the fire vuln. Nice try maybe try again.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:21 am    Post subject:

Kieros, my dear stupid boy, you would care because swords parry a lot better than exotic water cubes, two-handeds do vastly more damage than the one-handeds, and we're introducing overbear here, fire weapons are in greater supply than water weapons, and vulns take precedence over resistances.
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Amdorin



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Location: No matter how much a failure, no life is worthless. You can always serve as a bad example.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:44 am    Post subject:

Maybe you should also look at the big picture instead of how you feel it should nuke existing TT using Keepers. (And don't try to say you weren't thinking like that because rangers in general have those barkskin options, not just beast ones. You also made a point to point out dwarves [2 keepers, one justice])

Humans and other non-vuln possesing races using TT for example, now have a vuln (or an extra one). This is sure to motivate them to move on to better gear. Sword of Seasons (2 for 4) rape against a Dwarf for example.

The new shop does make it easier for Keepers to get specific kinds of gear, but it's still expensive so that balances things out so a Keeper will be tied to a vuln for a while before necessary to break set.

Powers are still to be seen.
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kieros



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:44 am    Post subject:

dav my dearest, less talk and show us with a log and see what happens. My guess is keeper dwarf warrior will still pwn.
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Olyn
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:47 am    Post subject:

When his name is Trogm of course he will. If you're saying the combo is overpowered just roll one and own.
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Slade
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:50 am    Post subject:

^ Player behind Trogm is good, not knocking him at all, but the combo is also very strong. Very.

Thats a good point about barkskin Amdo.. I don't know that I like that they can barkskin away/lessen the vuln. Same with dwarf war if their resistance applies against the vuln. These are all combos you want to actually hurt with such a vuln.
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Slade
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:52 am    Post subject:

"and vulns take precedence over resistances"

I'm assuming that means barkskin or dwarf res won't help, which is good.
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kieros



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:53 am    Post subject:

I disagree with this change, make the vuln for turmoil damage that way everyone at fifty has a chance to make a difference against them. How fun is it to be a mage and still get pounded on unless you brought back the mace of fire from winter, or your only option is a flame flail which doesn't parry very well right Dav. With the turmoil vuln anyone with half a brain can buy the weapon and I think it would help the game since we want fifties fighting. Since everyone has the ability to use a mace and sword, discount necros but they don't count anyway.
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Amdorin



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:58 am    Post subject:

kieros wrote:
dav my dearest, less talk and show us with a log and see what happens. My guess is keeper dwarf warrior will still pwn.



Olyn wrote:
When his name is Trogm of course he will. ..


I think you're really just underestimating the skill of the player, Keepers especially, and instead of admitting that the current (and past) members have a certain level of skill to attribute to their success, you'd rather pin it to a keeper skill. Rather insulting, but whatever.

You go as far to say you owned as a Keeper, and while true to a point, atonement was different then (OP) and punished the mark instead of complimenting the Keeper (who was in a nice set of hit/dam TT) . It's a much different effect now, and you haven't been a member since then. You also seem to refuse the idea that maybe you were just outperforming against a number of players, and that it wasn't solely the skill. Self esteem? You were still beat by those who had more skill than you, I don't understand where your disdain is coming from.
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Amdorin



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:07 am    Post subject:

Slade wrote:
.. I don't know that I like that they can barkskin away/lessen the vuln. Same with dwarf war if their resistance applies against the vuln.


While the fact is true that rangers can barkskin to neutralize the vuln. I think regular barkskin is overlooked in importance to a ranger's skill set. When using an element null barkskin, he doesn't have the additions of normal barkskin. Though many consider it's contribution moot, I'd never go into battle without it up if I wasn't facing elemental attacks (fireball, etc). It won't make or break a fight, but it does influence, though slightly, the outcome of getting hit.

Wereboar for example has a bonus to ac, coupled with ac from barkskin becomes a moderate improvement against fighting mobs, and players if you have a good hit/dam behind you.

Natural vulns (built in race vulns) take precedence over resistance for the fact that water damage is considered magic damage. (Something that Dwarves resist, but their water vuln won't take into account that magic resistance at all because that's how they're built.)
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