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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 13 hours.

Some Keepers news & Treant Thews
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kieros



Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Posts: 151

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:28 am    Post subject:

Ok let me first say this, Amdorin you are the reason I made Paromido. I never had any kind of success with a ranger, if attonement was changed since I played then great but Trogm still hits like a mofo as does Aduwd who has less skill but still effective. I am lumping TT with Keepers because since keepers existence that has been the suit you wear to work. Now its not a self-esteem issue because with Luciero I didn't find my fights as easy and I have the same play style and same strat in mind. Regardless of my thoughts on keepers I don't like the fire vuln because it doesn't encompass an item that is readily available to all classes. I think the focus should be for lvl 50 fighting and the biggest difference would be turmoil damage. Maybe thats taking a bit far I dunno something to think about. We all have our opinions and my sc 2 beta just finished dling so im done lol.
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kieros



Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Posts: 151

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:33 am    Post subject:

and I don't mean to insult any keeper with their skill, I am just speaking from my experience.. forgot about the patches for the beta so I have a few seconds. Anyway maybe Ill make a keeper so I can see how it is before opening my big mouth.
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TheOneAndOnly



Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 178
Location: Atlanta, GA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:03 am    Post subject:

As far as the vuln not being available to everyone:

Weapons common:
Fiery Dagger
Pitch Black longsword
Notched polearm
Double-edged sword
Arrows (carve one of the above)

Uncommon:
Demons Tongue
Durindel
Sword of Seasons
Sunfire

Spells:
Flame arrow
Fireball
Fire shield

Odds are I missed some but you get the point.

Seems like most things in this game it is well thought out and could be easily exploitable. Well done Dav, and thanks for the effort.
[/quote]
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Amdorin



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 829
Location: No matter how much a failure, no life is worthless. You can always serve as a bad example.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:25 am    Post subject:

Well for rangers you have to alter your playing style according to your tools. In Keeper a ranger can stand toe to toe more readily due to what's available, but is not the same case in another cabal, especially with the different armor restraints. With legion rangers you can't really fight as bold because the amount of middle tier eq isn't available (closest thing to get you by is malicious beast), that is until you get rared out (which is really the only time a non warrior shines in Legion so if you don't reach that point you'll have a hard time)

But back to the subject at hand, I don't think barkskin with TT should act the same when hit by fire. I think barkskin should nullify the vuln and the fire damage just be normal (as if ginko bark isn't up). If you force a complete overlook of ginko barkskin then it'll be the first utility skill to be nullified simply because of equipment (and complaints).
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kammkala6



Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:39 am    Post subject:

I find it very very suprising that noone has thought of this scenario: Berserker gets two fiery daggers, comes in and rages, hits twice into the vuln, now dwarf replaces an item, does lose the set buffs but hey, no more vuln, and hey some more, the berserker is hitting a dwarf with fire weapons:), hitting into a resistance, doing 50% of the damage he did before when hitting into a vuln.

Same thing with anyone that has weapon ward, use a fireweapon, ward it, dwarf replaces an item and you are hitting into a resistance doing very little damage. Replace the fireweapon with a water one, ward it, dwarf replaces TT back and gets the set bonuses.

For others that dont rage or ward, its going to be a constant switchfest, is it easier to swap weapons or a bracelet:).
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:39 am    Post subject:

This set of changes really isn't aimed at solving dwarf, or indeed warrior, prevalence. The focus here is improvements to the Keeper cabal..anti-cheese and more encouragements to try one.

Dwarf warrior has been gaining momentum recently because some people have figured out that con was reducing the duration of hobble and improving the chance of fleeing with it. That's the reason for the dwarf warrior reign. I have since remedied this by changing those factors to be strength-based just like dirt is dex-based (note that giants are the best - dwarf is only 22 str - and this has also helped some of the crappiest races). I've included the constitution that you are missing as a penalty, which I think is more along the lines of what we wanted, originally.
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Mandor



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 794

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:04 am    Post subject:

Davairus wrote:
This set of changes really isn't aimed at solving dwarf, or indeed warrior, prevalence. The focus here is improvements to the Keeper cabal..anti-cheese and more encouragements to try one.

Dwarf warrior has been gaining momentum recently because some people have figured out that con was reducing the duration of hobble and improving the chance of fleeing with it. That's the reason for the dwarf warrior reign. I have since remedied this by changing those factors to be strength-based just like dirt is dex-based (note that giants are the best - dwarf is only 22 str - and this has also helped some of the crappiest races). I've included the constitution that you are missing as a penalty, which I think is more along the lines of what we wanted, originally.


sham, dk, and necros get hobble next right? plague here we come! Razz
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Mandor



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 794

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:18 am    Post subject:

kammkala6 wrote:
I find it very very suprising that noone has thought of this scenario: Berserker gets two fiery daggers, comes in and rages, hits twice into the vuln, now dwarf replaces an item, does lose the set buffs but hey, no more vuln, and hey some more, the berserker is hitting a dwarf with fire weapons:), hitting into a resistance, doing 50% of the damage he did before when hitting into a vuln.

Same thing with anyone that has weapon ward, use a fireweapon, ward it, dwarf replaces an item and you are hitting into a resistance doing very little damage. Replace the fireweapon with a water one, ward it, dwarf replaces TT back and gets the set bonuses.

For others that dont rage or ward, its going to be a constant switchfest, is it easier to swap weapons or a bracelet:).


On that point, if they're wearing TT, that means they have nothing better, so switching out is losing a lot of benefit for a CHANCE at going back into combat with someone still wielding the fire.
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kammkala6



Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:00 am    Post subject:

Mandor wrote:
kammkala6 wrote:
I find it very very suprising that noone has thought of this scenario: Berserker gets two fiery daggers, comes in and rages, hits twice into the vuln, now dwarf replaces an item, does lose the set buffs but hey, no more vuln, and hey some more, the berserker is hitting a dwarf with fire weapons:), hitting into a resistance, doing 50% of the damage he did before when hitting into a vuln.

Same thing with anyone that has weapon ward, use a fireweapon, ward it, dwarf replaces an item and you are hitting into a resistance doing very little damage. Replace the fireweapon with a water one, ward it, dwarf replaces TT back and gets the set bonuses.

For others that dont rage or ward, its going to be a constant switchfest, is it easier to swap weapons or a bracelet:).


On that point, if they're wearing TT, that means they have nothing better, so switching out is losing a lot of benefit for a CHANCE at going back into combat with someone still wielding the fire.


You dont seem to understand, raged berserkers or people with warded weapons wont be swapping, so they will hit into your resist if you are a dwarf until they can swap(zerker will be dead by then) and others will still do a few rounds of very little damage.

I am not saying this wont be helpful against lets say a human warrior who has no other vuln to hit so fire is as good as any other and as a bonus vulnhitting if they do wear thews.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:38 pm    Post subject:

How about instead of complaining about theory, we give this change a chance to play itself out, then we can argue about how crappy it is. Let's wait until we get some logs of Trogm getting owned by fire before we complain about how much this vuln will nerf Keepers. Give it a shot guys, plus, the vuln makes sense, you're encased in wood and wood is flammable.
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crazyhorse



Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 627

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:08 pm    Post subject:

If the set gets swapped out of, then they lose to pwnage treant thews is, and are thus doing much less damage than previous anyway...

A zerker who starts combat raged against a warrior is dead no matter what. I would keep TT in that case, and just pwn him with overheads.
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crazyhorse



Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 627

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:16 pm    Post subject:

Cant edit, so sorry for double post. I though I should elaborate on my first post.

As a mage, if a warrior thought that my 2 attacks with a fiery were worth taking thews off for, I would keep the fiery to keep him out of thews.

And that, sir, is ftw.

Mages pwn with spells, not their fiery dagger.
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Ceridwel
Immortal


Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 3385
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Some Keepers news & Treant Thews

Davairus wrote:
Keepers are visibly reminded that their cabal *is* AT WAR (i.e. gangbanging expected, precedence over other duties is those battles) with whoever's gotten ahead of the other cabals on this scale, as well as receive some skill to enable them to carry out the duty that requires. You may want to think about this last point when you join an already bloated cabal. The Keepers will be attracted to cabals which have abnormally large numbers of players. Keepers should consider restoring the pendulum's balance quite a bit more important than chasing around some elf healer, they should even go grab the item of that cabal and sit on it, slaughter them ,etc.



I fricken love this. Bassball, here's your chance to actually do some real fighting with Arvar.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:35 pm    Post subject:

The problem with using someone like Trogm to make a case is he would do just as well with a gnome warrior. The tendency for other players to copy the best players' present combo is nothing new.
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bassball
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:26 pm    Post subject:

Just want to point out real quick that when I had my Keeper I did pretty decent. And atonement wasn't worth crap back then compared to now... Remember when you actually had to physically use atonement Amdo? And then as soon as you did they just ran away and recall/teleport/anything the could manage to get away. Lol. I never even used atonement.


As far as the fire vuln to thews it definitely makes sense. I even think it was proposed a long time ago because it made such sense. I've yet to see what it looks like and if it's bad or doesn't even matter. But if the point of it was to make Keepers want to use it less, why'd you give them a better option then thews without a vuln? IF they get sweet random gear now that's better then thews was before it got nerfed... Well. I guess I don't know anything about the new random gear. But that's what most of these posts are - random assumptions.
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Amdorin



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 829
Location: No matter how much a failure, no life is worthless. You can always serve as a bad example.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:48 pm    Post subject:

bassball wrote:
Just want to point out real quick that when I had my Keeper I did pretty decent. And atonement wasn't worth crap back then compared to now... Remember when you actually had to physically use atonement Amdo? And then as soon as you did they just ran away and recall/teleport/anything the could manage to get away. Lol. I never even used atonement.

...


Yeah, back when people hated atonement so much they'd try and 4v1 us over and over. And half the time we didn't use atonement anyway because it lagged us (it was a command) and they'd just run away. While it was OP (it used to damage you and reduce your hit/dam) people would just not fight instead, unless they had a gang of people to fight with them.

After Yurneepo left it was just Farist and Hrimoyan for a while, getting super ganked (as was suggested on forums) when players were tired of getting "owned" by a skill that wasn't getting used on them anymore anyway.
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crazyhorse



Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 627

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:50 pm    Post subject:

The point was to nerf the give away (thews), make them WANT to spend money/take time to get non nerfed better equipment (gambled) and have something to lose, rather than the automatic thews uber re-equip.


A good addition IMO.
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Amdorin



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 829
Location: No matter how much a failure, no life is worthless. You can always serve as a bad example.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:50 pm    Post subject:

*no edit button*

That point to say, after a while it was just people getting beat by higher skilled players in TT *without* any form of inherent atonement. Only mages were getting hit with it then cuz they couldn't just flee/switch/hobble, but since you can't lag them they just ran.
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Vhrael
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1085
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:13 pm    Post subject:

bassball wrote:
But if the point of it was to make Keepers want to use it less, why'd you give them a better option then thews without a vuln?

As Dav already posted (somewhere), the point of the TT change *was* to spur players (Keepers as well as non-Keepers) to move past TT as a pinnacle set of equipment. Keepers have the gambled items now, which can definitely outperform TT rather quickly, but at a hefty price.

The reason there's no vuln is because <insert drumroll> they CAN'T USE RARE/UNIQUE EQUIPMENT!!! If you can get a +3 hit/dam item by getting a group together and scouring Evermore, they can go farm during a surge and gamble for the equivalent. It's an even trade, but as you'll all see (or hear about) the Keepers really won't have "easy street" for equipment by any means.

Non-Keepers can still use TT the same as anyone else, but they still have rares available to either complement or replace it, so there shouldn't be any complaints about it being "unfair." Everybody's in the same boat here.
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bassball
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:44 pm    Post subject:

Never said it was unfair. I'm fine with it so long as it works out like Dav planned. Thanks for the changes and the thought, and most of all thanks for caring to make things better.
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