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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:46 am    Post subject:

btw the adrenaline change is there a way to minimize it if your group mate accidentally attacks your pet or you? it is such a pain to wait that out when using potions?
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:48 am    Post subject:

Well I believe I took out fireball AOE'ing other peoples pets.. but if you accidentally attack your groupmate, sorry, but that's really kinda stupid, and should be taken into consideration with RP also.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:53 am    Post subject:

Ozaru wrote:
well personally i never play a fire giant because of the sick bow vuln. I think my log is there when schist invaded at lvl 50 dual wielded and i had my rank 40 ranger with ice arrows and he died in two rounds because he didn't use sanc. Things like that happening really place me out of playing chars with vulns because one mistake and poof especially as a warrior when a lot of things need to fall your way.



I think that giants are in a bit of an odd place although not really for the same reasons you do.


As far as bows go, basically everyone who is in the wrong situation is totally defenseless. There is a giant counter to bows though.. shields. If Schist wore a shield, he would be blocking in the region of 3x better than normal. Having attacked a ranger he should have definitely known better... However, maybe it is not right for rangers to be able to carve arrows that deal magic damage? I can see how given the severe potency of bows in the right situation, it means the magic damage / vuln arrows will need to be rare items. Let me know if I'm wrong about them being able to do that.


As for giants (and fire giants), I find it perfectly reasonable for them to be vulned because they have extremely high strength and large size, and 23 con giving them a lot of hp. Without the vulns, they would definitely be the most popular race... 25 strength gives them big damrolls, and strength is affecting key warrior skills like disarm, bash, hobble, and a bunch of other general stuff, like 25 str being your best possible shot at stopping parry (dodge is a problem, but not every class has dodge). They also make an interesting offensive cleric because of that. Some of the most successful characters played have been fire giants. Not to mention their ability to soak up physical damage being unmatched.


Other vulned races have similar advantages, and we've seen people playing vulned characters very commonly because of these advantages.


Giants seem to me to be an exception amongst vulned races because of effigies... they seem *easily* tooled by those weapons, despite the low avg (the biggest is only 21 ave), and their means of "protection" in the warriors case is limited to berserk, which takes 50% of mana and movement every time, causing them to run out of steam quickly regardless of having the protection. In the clerics case, that protection is non-existent. But then again... what protection do other vulned races have against their vulns?

I think we might just have a general problem with two-handed weapons hitting vulns being too buff. (This also applies to bows) I can't really offer any more comment on that without looking at some numbers, its just the sense I'm getting from the context of the post and my own experience.
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Smotpoker



Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 552
Location: In my shadow

PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:13 am    Post subject:

well to throw my 2 cents in on giants i cant seem to play them. With a fire giant you have to worry about ice vuln which is nasty and mental vuln which is uber nasty.
Storm giants have a vuln to wood which hardly anyone uses and last time i tried it was so so.
Stone giants only have the mental vuln which still sucks.

As for giant warriors you pretty much have to one practice them and spend days upon days upon days with random rewards, surges and guild rewards to even make up for their lack of int and learning so 90% of the time you would be training or be wasting trains/practices to get every skill to 75% to be combat ready. Granted they have huge hp pools and the resists to physical attacks (sometimes players forget this) and they can do very well but get one guy with above par items and vuln weapon and they get smoked like a cheap cigar.

Some vuln races can easily shrug off their vulns avian invoker comes to mind with their magic shield. along with classes that can dampen damage and/or heal it. Other vuln race/classes just cant handle it even with the racial legacies. At least thats from my own experiences.

Also some vulns are not as harsh as the other vulns.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:32 am    Post subject:

Maybe my math is wrong but it seems like the effigy damage output is only the same as dual wielded icicles, and that's for the level 50 one. This is because you get more attacks per round dual wielding, which makes up for the larger two handed hits. There might be other disadvantages to hitting multiple times that I'm not yet aware of, maybe hitting wimpy? The rod (mace, mental damage) looks a lot stronger than effigies. Although I think 2 hander may be unfair to have damage that high because that combat style is probably the safest... no overhead and no barrage/shielddisarm... and the weapon is easy to get. Rotdeath is a downside to any store-bought item, but this is one that you would not buy anyway besides for the special occasion of killing a giant.

The bow damage is another issue... bow ave dam comes from the weapon not the arrow. That's bound to get ugly. Vuln hitting may have to be controlled better on arrows. This issue is something I will think about. For what it is worth, will agree that I would not play a stone giant again because of this vuln, and the # of players that are actually playing stone giants seem to agree with that.
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Voltron



Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:07 pm    Post subject:

I don't know how many times I've tried to tell you guys that giants get stupid raped by their vulns..

The effigys aren't super bad.. but EVERYONE can get them and it takes them two seconds to grab them. It's seriously almost easier to get an effigy then to get a dream catcher. And that's just stupid. But they're not super over-powered damage wise. But still a huge pain in the ass. Bows on the other hand are crazy.. even with a shield.. Carve an icy girth and use your woodcrafted ranger bow and you drop four mangles a round through sanc. I don't even wanna know what the demoncage or whatever that avg 36 bow would do.

Also, there are rare ice arrows in the game.. but rangers can just carve them from easy items whenever they want. So that seems silly. Granted carving can fail, takes a second to do, and doesn't last permanently. But still..
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Hrimoyan
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:12 pm    Post subject:

I don't understand why the bash bash bash race is even being complained about. I've not seen a competent giant absolutely owned by any mental vuln. Fire's ice vuln sucks, but fire giants are ridiculously potent.. especially in damage gear.

The bow "issue" seems out of place to me because frankly, you deserve to get tore into if you dual wield against a ranger, especially as a giant. It's not out of the ordinary for a giant to outdamage their opponent in defense combat style. While there is a penalty to the chance of disarm when in inferior combat style a giant can usually get past that anyway because of his superior strength (and that playing a large factor into successful disarms). There isn't a counter for the attempt outside of 2 round lag versus rogues getting all kinds of pain dealt to them for trying a combat skill in inferior style, and a lagged rogue is a dead rogue.

Rangers can't really outdamage a warrior outside of them being dense enough to dual wield a ranger, so when you couple giant warriors into that understanding, I don't understand the problem with bows. Since you should never dual wield against one, they should never have the opportunity to wield one unless you get caught in some clusterfuck of being blinded and disarmed (but if you're overbear doublegripped reflex mode like you should be, that shouldn't even happen).

Now, I admit I find it easier to take down warriors as a ranger, but I attribute that to my style of play vs the mechanics in game. I don't play giants because there's too low int for my liking and the strength gain isn't worth it for my style of play, but I'll have to give it a go one of these days because giant war/zerk and dwarf warriors are king.
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Voltron



Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:24 pm    Post subject:

You're wrong Hrimo. While yeah it's perfectly plausible for someone good at the game to beat a ranger with a fire warrior, it's overly difficult and unbalanced. Have I beaten a ranger with a giant warrior? yes. More often then I've died? No. And I'm not a perfect example of how the game should be, by any means. But it's not perfectly dandy like you claim it is. Rangers can outdamage a defensive fire giant if they're dual wielding.. not that tough. They can and do do it. Rangers also get double disarm, the most retarded ranger skill ever. Which, despite strength differences, still lands with combat and weapon type advantages.. Promise.

I try to never dual wield against rangers and still get beat. Or, the best part is, when you're stomping a ranger and switch to dual wield to finish him off because he's using a shield. And then he wears a bow and in 1 round it goes from a 75% against a 20% to a 20% against an 18%. That always makes me giddy with joy.
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marsd



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:58 pm    Post subject:

Sorry but bash don't "work" anymore. The old school firegiants uberfeared bash and bodyslams are nonexistent - I remember a quote from Dav in chat saying he had time to cackle with a firegiant in between bash rounds because the enemy is lagged 3 while bash only lags 2.

I don't know the exact % chance, but it's so slim that to be chain bashed, you'd have to either be supremely (un)lucky or blinded, hobbled and in combat inferiority plus small size (dwarf/halfing/gnome).

The stacked mental AND ice vulns makes little sense now for firegiants. Tell me the last time you really feared any giant?
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Hrimoyan
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:33 pm    Post subject:

I just think it's not being taken into account that the overall skill level of pbase has declined greatly and that's not an insult, but there just doesn't seem to be many 5+ year pk vets making these complaints. I think if the things being complained about get implemented, and Slade/Pip decides to roll Fire war/zerk.. you guys will really experience pain.. uncountered pain because all the race's nuances have been scaled back to make it easier for the average player. Imagine a Fire giant Ygin. Better yet, imagine (for those of you that remember) Quar .. with lesser vuln. No thank you.

All I'm saying is that any pk accommodations made for the average player only makes the top tier that much harder to beat (who are used to much harsher settings) and I'm against that. Certain races are harder to play for the average player but pk vets can circumvent the race's cons and make its pros shine, to lessen the cons that a player has go through but get the same advantages sounds nuts to me.

I would make more of the case to scale back some of the race's pros too then if there is really a case being made for giants, but no one wants that I'm sure.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:01 am    Post subject:

Vulns are bows are very powerful because bows are given the ave dam of normal physical weapons, which is then used in the calculation of damage. Its basically making vulned people into gnomes. If you've played a dwarf or duergar, you'd certainly know the water cube is a bit of a bitch... it mangles with mediocre damroll. That's from an ave 16 weapon. If you played a giant, you'd know about the *** from effigy... that's ave 21. The bows go up to 28-30 ave, no problem.

Now the guys you mentioned, who were they? Are you saying it is not broken because the best players on the game managed to succeed? I would like to see some real data if you don't mind.

Like this, for instance: http://ar.invokation.net/logs/view.php?id=3847

Massacres through sanc. Double water cubes damage. The arrows are just bought from a Timaran shop, and the bow is just crafted. Some of this log was being done vs shield block... which is supposed to own bow. Its totally unblockable in inferior combat style.


Balanced you say. People are just shittier players. Don't touch bows because rangers don't deserve any nerfs and giants deserve to be pwnt. Would you care to roll a giant and prove everyone wrong?


Last edited by Davairus on Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:15 am    Post subject:

well to be fair what were gaarns skill % for shield block dodge and parry. I agree with hrimo that a well trained fire giant warrior is a pretty tough beast. with the height of my ranger career I fought innedeus sorry if I spelled your name wrong and it was a tough fight, both competent players and it went back and forth as it should. I am sure what saved him is not making a stupid mistake against a bow, having superior eq which he did and the length of time he was active i am sure he had a lot of masteries.

That is why I am calling for an increase in learning for giants, sad to say but its hard to invest the time to 1 prac or even 2 prac a skill with every tom dick and harry take the oath or die light walker with a wrath, ice , or mental weapon when your skills are at 75% if you are lucky....
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:17 am    Post subject:

Logs please.
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Hrimoyan
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:26 am    Post subject:

Gaarn could have easily placed the smackdown even in these logs. There are several things wrong with that example, for one.. he had pure advantage from the next engage and could have pwned said ranger to nothingness via a simple sideswipe, but Gaarn was far too obsessed with bash-bash-hobble. That's a player skill problem in this instance of this fight.. that damage wouldn't have meant anything had he did his 1.5 round lag sideswipe nullifying all of the ranger's damage for the next consecutive round, not to mention it's pretty easily spammable.

That log isn't good enough for practical application. Is the damage outrageous? Yes. Is that damage beyond easily countered? Yes. There are def some contributing factors, such as gear ..in which he was primarily in damage gear.. including spell save bracers ?_? So he was definitely out hitrolled contributing to getting hit so much while in superior combat.

I know I'm an avid ranger player and it's easy to think I'm just defending the class from being changed, but I think this log very much supports my statement earlier that people just don't know what they're doing. Gaarn should have won this fight (even with his poor gear selection), or at least that last encounter.

Warriors have beserk which gives giants the resist to their mental nerf at the expense of a weaker parry and half current mana/move. If you want to scale back ice vuln or weaken rangers or whatever, that is fine. My main concern is that you're just making it easier for Pip/Slade/Jeos of the game to own, because if an average player doesn't know to sideswipe a bow wielding ranger when in advantage, no amount of vuln scale back is going to save him from a competent player.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:12 am    Post subject:

Hitroll does not factor into shield block. I will give sideswipe / bash bugfix a chance to work.... the bash bugfix should be more encouraging for people who wanted to try giants but felt put off by the vuln. That is a pretty important fix for giants especially. This doesnt change the fact that bow vuln damage is enormous though. We can look at the half-elf ranger bow legacy and the carve arrow skill if it still seems too much down the road. For now, I see no immediate reason to take action.
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Vertas



Joined: 17 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:09 pm    Post subject:

It's not that people are shittier players (well maybe...) ar is just more of a thinking man's game now.
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Dogran
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:19 pm    Post subject:

That Log of Gaarn, Was Me (Emilise) My first ranger, and then Gaarn (Corzen) I was still pretty much a noob then, was learning how awesome I think rangers are. Every other time we fought. He owned me. The next time we fought after that? Same situation, He fought better, I only won because a 50 healer walked in and started healing me when he was raged and I was nearly dead.
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Hrimoyan
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:45 pm    Post subject:

Here's some logs from some of my warrior/ranger fights.

http://ar.invokation.net/logs/view.php?id=4229
Me vs Arvar (Dwarf) - Actually, Tipplewise and him switched on fighting me, as you can read in their cb chat convo. He was owning me the whole time, and the only way I beat him was to capitalize on any opportune mistake he gave. It's a good fight, the double spacing sucks though.

http://ar.invokation.net/logs/view.php?id=4084
Me vs Vaelyn (Half-Elf) - This came down to the wire mostly, my snap shot finished it.

http://ar.invokation.net/logs/view.php?id=3964
Me vs Arvar(Dwarf) - I tried to rely on my bow skills because I never used leading shot.. it had been a year since I had last used it (Hrimo was mortal for over 2 yrs). It doesn't have too many applicable purposes for PK. Lag from lead shot gave Arvar time to hobble, so I wouldn't flee and sideswipe owned me to hell. I remembered why I hadn't used it lol, though I did miss my one opportunity to escape that fate by realizing his combat type when I fled post snap shot.
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Arishel



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:51 pm    Post subject:

I was a bit surprised to see Gaarn pop up here. Gaarn was my first fire giant warrior ever, and I believe it showed in my pk. I was horrible with him, but I did learn alot. The vuln thing did make me angry most of the time, and I also fought before the mental vuln save was applied to berserk. Could I have owned him with sideswipe? Yes. Was I outdamaged/outgeared? Yes. Would I play a fire-giant again? Yes. (Krydus) Was I a noob with fire-giant warriors? YES. Lol.

Fire-Giant berserker is the way to go, but the fire-giant warrior is a challenge the way things are now, but I also think that's what 25 str/large size will get you.
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Dogran
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:16 pm    Post subject:

Oops, I was thinking of guran vs emilise, my bad.
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