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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 11 hours.

berserker updates: mania, rage, relax
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m1coftw



Joined: 05 May 2015
Posts: 265

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:17 am    Post subject:

I loled at "furnace rp"
hhahaha


tears in my eyes hahaa
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:27 am    Post subject:

ozaru, do you really believe monks to be complex or are you just saying that? I really do not think they are very complex at all. I am also not sure exactly why you think berserkers have just three moves of doom, they do actually have intricacies to them, for instance

- saving the warcry for the right time to stun
- the nice autorakes on two handed rage
- knowing when to properly use flurry

just three I was able to think of. Yes they have some tools that are easily applied. As is tiger style

I'm genuinely interested in your reasoning
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 2156

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:18 pm    Post subject:

Should've flurried.
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Kedaleam
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Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:45 pm    Post subject:

Monks aren't complex. This guy just had issues is all. As Nycticora said in a post. They are fine if anything buff other classes. Monks and zerkers are fine how they are. Just learn how to play the classes against other classes.
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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:25 pm    Post subject:

the intricacies that you speak of aren't really necessary nor do they make much of a difference when Lorne walks in ====OBLITERATES==== you.

When i say monks are complex i am referring to the chosen stance. If I am fighting a ranger and I dual wield he switches to a bow that will more often result in me taking more damage and losing that round. When I am a monk and someone goes defensive and I can use crane or drunken and it has completely different benefits. It seems that crane is better for melee with shield block and drunken would be for those that use counterbalance or monks. The problem i have is if I lose the round or the fight I am left thinking did I choose the right stance because maybe its just me but I thought drunk has increased dodge which I don't really notice.

Leopard stance is the default stance against everyone except invokers. I never found it useful to use tiger mantis snake or dragon because the damage absorbed is not nearly worth the proposed benefits. You speak about nerve plus pressure points but that just isn't feasable. Even if a zerker stands there and says ok hit me with a snake kick, then switch to mantis for nerve and pressure points. I am still doing decimates and injures if I am lucky a maim while he is already pumping out mutilates, disembowls and dismembers. Disarm could work but I have really found it unreliable even mastered with someone nerved. Mind you in snake style you are weapon disadvantaged so I kick, his mania is suspended, I try to disarm I fail he body slams rages I am done for.

Maybe its my own inability to figure the class or maybe monks are gimped because they can only learn a few weapons, but like ive said a bunch of times fights against zerkers and dkns left me like wtf why do i even bother. A necro invests two hours to raise zombies and is buff until he quits. Everyone else invests time in eq and training and is ready to go.
Monks invest time in eq, training and then to get a kill I have to run around for 30 minutes healing my ass off just trying to keep up with your oblits when you walk in, no thanks. Like I said I wish I never made shiyun was a waste for 100 hours one of the first times ive ever felt that about a character and I probably won't make a monk until someone can show us how to beat zerkers or something is done to even the balance
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Faelon
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Your moms house.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:52 pm    Post subject:

Ozaru, you aren't allowed to insult rp, until you are actually capable of rp. As it stands now, most characters you play end up in the "shit man, everyone's op but me" delete pile. Last RP I remember out of you, was you popping up and telling a knight of mine that you were brother to a dude who just deleted. Sooopah Original!

Fyi - A few monks almost handled me in regal radiance, while I was in tenor, just sitting their taking rage/mania in leopard stance.

A monk, whose name I cannot recall though I know who plays him, smoked me and I had to use a dirty fucking trick to get him.

The monk Justice who cropped up and deleted, I never could get and he almost had me a number of times.

Every single instance of whining out of you is anecdotal at best. I only ever point out previous fights I've had, so people who I fought against could actually back up what I was saying.


Oh yeah - the only reason the kills you were referring to were so easy, is likely because they were on you. And jesus, you're right, that can't get any easier.
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Faelon
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Your moms house.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:02 pm    Post subject:

Oh yeah- Ozaru. READ THE PREVIOUS POSTS.

The record I showed you earlier on, was the record of a warlord currently playing. He is a fire giant berserker.

The other one is a monk. Who has a 9 and 9 record against both warlord zerkers and non-warlord zerkers.
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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:32 pm    Post subject:

i wasn't insulting your furnace rp personally i think its stupid but i said you got into the hoe because of ur record and ur rp that is all. I never claim to be anyones brother if i break "rp" which i never create its to cuss someone out. So please stop making shit up. I have always said that it is my inability to play the class, but maybe those fights u had with other monks that was before the healing change or for sure those monks had sanctuary which makes a difference. Against voglin yes ur zerker dominated my monk I definitely got frustrated which is why i made a new monk to improve on some of the mistakes i made. You are claiming that zerkers are balanced then why are so many people complaining about zerkers and dkns im not the only one. yes one guy was able to beat a couple of zerkers and lose a couple of times as well, maybe he played it ebtter than I. In my previous posts monks in warlords is not a good idea especially because of the arena. Could some of my fights gone differently maybe, but for me I don't like the effort necessary for monks. Maybe for ur next char you can put daggers on feet and skate around winter everywhere with smoke coming from your head.
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Faelon
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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Location: Your moms house.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:59 pm    Post subject:

I likely overreacted. I'm not a morning person and here I am up way too fucking early. I do remember what I remember and I feel like in the graveyard post you come out as the owner of that specific warrior. Which doesn't make it a "Lie", but I could be wrong as well.


Regardless of all that bullshit.

In this most recent post you readily admit that others may have played monks better. Maybe monks aren't suited to handle berserkers as well as they are other classes. I had a level 30 monk who was taking fire giant soldiers, no potions and no need for potions. No level 30 warrior is going to do the same. Monks are powerhouse tanks. Their offensive skills need some work, but the problem lies in the fact that if they get beefed up offensively, they are going to fucking run the table on everything. I remember monks previously. A well trained monk fucked up everybody's world.

Also - why the fuck are all the warlords so interested in fighting in the god damn arena? If you fight a berserker in the arena, no matter what class, you are absolutely going to lose. That's like fighting a necromancer in the fucking arena, with full zombies previous to the change. Fight in a place with lots of mobs to absorb any rage/mania use and places to run to catch some healing. The monks I didn't rage against, were monks that used different styles to get combat advantage. I had to keep switching styles to make sure I didn't get my face handed to me.

There is this assumption that if you play a berserker you are walking in, raging and winning. Please, someone show me a group of logs where that happened in every fight. Walk in - rage - bodyslam. Cause that's what it takes to win, right? Just that. So. Make one, get to 50, walk in on everyone and rage. Let me know how that goes.
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ramod



Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:03 am    Post subject:

Dav, If save vs mental can defend from tames then that's ok if you feel that's what you need to balance the fighter classes. I just wasn't cool with the no saves tame. The thing with rage making bows crap is you gotta realize after you rage you're stuck in one combat/weapon style unless you get a successful relax. Which isn't really successful much if you got mania on too. So you can easily just switch to your advantage and murder away. Especially with the regene gimp, a rangers herb is way superior.

Nyc, what Warlord IMM? there's no Warlord imm. When the hell were Warlords allowed to use sanctuary?! whaaaaa? That's the most retarded thing. The whole ideology of Warlords was always being masters of war with their own training.

Sometimes it really isn't a balance issue. Sometimes you just plain suck. As in you don't know the class you're fighting against very well so you don't know how to counter all their tricks and adjust to them. And maybe you just plain suck at playing the class you're playing as well. I mean, I can only say I play a few classes in AR very well. The rest I'm just ok and some I really suck at.
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ramod



Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:43 am    Post subject:

Three mangles equals 1 ***? Ozaru, are you smoking crack? Don't get blinded by the star damage. If all a berserker can do is a demolish/devastate to you per round with all that damroll they are pretty crappy and you're parrying/dodging alot of attacks.

Honestly with the mania nerf, I really rather have just regene back and not have mania.
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Nycticora



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:14 am    Post subject:

fairly recently Strife had warlord powers and was open. I had a DK in it. It was awesome.

It was Meriando I was talking to, I edited his name out of the post because just as I posted that he said he wanted to keep his return secret until he deleted his monk
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:35 am    Post subject:

The damage messages are linear when they are lower cased, with very tight hp between each division. After they turn CAPS, they begin to ramp stupidly.

Its probably very easy to tell that two decimates is shittier to take than 1 maim, even though maims are good. But then, when you get up into like obliterates, those damage messages are like taken from comic books. They look tremendous. Its like the equivalent of watching the strongman hitting the hammer at funfair and makes the pigeon just rocket skyhigh to the top and ring the bell. It might as way say "KAPOW!" before it, or whatever the fuck it is they put over incredible hulk punches these days.

Obviously, for *melee* damage message scaling (as in, what fighters do for damage), linear display was the way to go, and I daresay if you open up a stock rom 2.4 that is exactly what you will find our buddies in copenhagen did. The whole thing our ancestors left us with is just half-assed. Nobody thought to use a fibonacci sequence or anything, at least an exponential scale wouldve been nice. Nope, they chose arbritrarily dumb numbers. In fact, the difference between devastate and obliterate, and between obliterate and annihilate, and then annihilate and eradicate again, is the exact same amount, after exploding exponentially. WTF.

Speaking of ranges, the range of obliterates is SO wide that the difference between the two ends of it is a whole massacre, almost a mangle worth of damage. So you are actually being denied some visual information, or at the very least, if you even knew what an oblit represents, you just got slammed with a large uncertainty into wtf just happened. And who is looking at their hp points in a scrap really? I would say you would have a very hard time understanding what you are really looking at when you see an obliterate.

I personally would prefer not see this "fury" crap on my screen, it confuses my internal trigger to tell me I forget sanctuary. Its not like, herr derr, youre stupid guy because you dont know what the fuck just happened when you ate an obliterate melee attack. If I saw an obliterate I would definitely make the assumption that I was taking some badass motherfucking damage, and I know the fact is, it could be two disembowels and a low massacre, but it could also be that with a mangle, and that second case is pretty badass and I'd not be able to fight as effectively and make sound decisions without insight into wtf damage to expect to start with. Incase you can't tell I'm getting a little fired up looking at the fallout from the stupid decisions people have made (not consolidating rage damage, I mean the actual damage ranges that were chosen). The only thing I can think of, is that those nouns were chosen to meet the criteria of specific spells, i.e. attacks that demand you to get saves and sanc, and under normal circumstances you don't see them because of reduction.. you see something at least closer to the intuitive range. And probably they were not a location that melee attacks were ever expected to go. However, I'm almost certain that its just more dumbass shit that I will have to fix.


My advice is this. Get on the plugin bandwagon, gauges is the way forward now. Use the gauges and watch for the telltale chunking of no sanc.

http://abandonedrealms.com/plugins/
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ramod



Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:29 am    Post subject:

Sorry, took me a long time to respond to this thread. Reading some catchup here.

So what I understand is essentially mania has been nerfed to barely being a boost in damage with the huge downside of if you rage and don't lag your opponent, things can get really hairy really quick.

Now alot of talk has been towards how complex berserkers are now, with their different rage tiers and skills used during rage, as well as passive skills becoming active (regeneration). I don't know about other people, but I play berserkers for their SIMPLICITY.

When I think of the fundamentals of the class, it really boils down to a brute force fighter then dishes out damage quickly (rage) and heals fast (regeneration) from its wounds. Rage being a double edged sword, sometimes its great, sometimes you're screwed. I've always played this class because of its simplicity, not it's complexity. There's many complex classes to choose from. If I wanted more complex I'd choose playing an illusionist or invoker. Don't get me wrong, I love playing complex classes too, but I don't think ever class should be complex. Some classes should really just hit and smash, which is what the fighter classes should be...in order of increasing complexity berserker<ranger<warrior. Now that we got monks, monks are after warriors obviously.

All these active skill changes, although some cool, even a bit op (mania) deters my interest in the class. Because after all these changes, I personally feel it's an overall gimp (ie. mania is barely good with a severe regeneration gimp) but makes the berserker class much more complex to play.

I'm curious to understand the reasoning for all these active skill changes to berserkers, were they considered underpowered for awhile?
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:10 am    Post subject:

Don't know why people say things are complex as if it is a bad thing we did, I mean, it is a text game, the medium is fairly limited in what it can even do. I didn't single berserker out for abuse or anything, mania wasn't nerfed mega hard at all, regeneration was though. I changed /created those skills because I wanted to do some berserker specs, e.g. totemic berserker will be followed by his totems or whatever. Still letting that all bake though and we need to add the magic resist skill, which I cannot do while people are still crowing zerkers are OP, I'm waiting that out first.
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ramod



Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:18 am    Post subject:

Well I never meant to say making things complex is bad. If a class is meant to be complex (when I think of complex, I think more of hybrid classes or mages), then I'm all for it. Those classes, I feel should have more complexity to it then just typing flee/murder.

When I think of berserkers, I just don't think of complex. If I wanted to play with a whole different amount of specs and what not (which all sound very cool and all), I'd choose something like a hybrid (which I feel a more spec'ed anyways, ie a holy warrior - paladin).

This is just my personal opinion on the matter, from playing the berserker class over the years and why I like to play it/choose to play it.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:37 am    Post subject:

Well I have nothing against you playing a stone berserker ten times in a row if you like, and I'm not saying it'll ever be the goal for having that race/class combo fully geared out to be any less than the straight-forward ass kicking machine that it currently is. That is staying, but I'd like to see some of the other race-class and racial legacy combos being attempted.

When you present a spec choice, the players reaction is naturally gonna be "Let me see what a good race is to go with that spec" and then they'll choose a race based on the stats fitting their spec. But the player who thinks they really understands berserkers may have it figured out that stone giant physical resistance while raged simply outweighs all other racial factors (this is strictly a "for instance" not something to take as truth here), and just takes this race with what they also see as some single good spec. that's not like a complex thing, its just an insight you can make or learn the hard way, and it gives us something to debate over, and create some sort of interest in the class and really the game comes alive in a big way through having that sort of debate possible. thats what I want.
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ramod



Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:49 am    Post subject:

Like I said, it's my personal opinion of playing berserkers over the years. I'm pretty sure I've played more berserkers then most, maybe even you, and have played almost every single race that it has to offer. Save for human. I've had success on most of them. This has nothing to do with stone giant berserkers

Obviously your opinion differs on the fundamentals of this class. Like I said before, I just think this class should be simple. It doesn't need people to "spec" for it, it's already a spec'd warrior that relies on rage. I think you're dreaming if you want every race/class combo to be represented. We just don't have the playerbase for that, and some race/class combos are just going to be better for a current meta.

But whatevs, you do you.
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Kato



Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 219

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:59 am    Post subject:

Re berserker magic resist: they already have it, in the form of 500 bonus hp versus flat damage spells
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ottif



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:37 pm    Post subject:

why should a class that can do ANNIHILATES through sanc in one round that does not miss be simple? this is supposed to be the thinking mans pvp game i thought.

also are we sure we can trust m1cos mush client? no offense seems cool but...
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