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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 17 hours, 24 mins.

Looting in AR

 
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Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 4:29 pm    Post subject: Looting in AR

Dav made a comment in the thief thread that really got me thinking, and reinforced some feelings I've had about EQ in AR for a while now.

Code:
 grinding for 4 hours to buy a sack of saves is too brutal, no matter which way you eventually lose that sack.


This is a symptom of one of the toughest things to swallow about AR, the looting. It's also ironically one of it's most defining features. And it's not limited to just gambling SvS items.

Humans are naturally risk averse. This is a very well documented aspect of human psychology. People are much more likely to avoid losing something than take a risk to gain something. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to treat this as an axiom and ask that we refrain from debating this point here. If anyone has doubts about this, I can provide many peer-reviewed studies published in reputable journals.

It's this phenomenon that drives people quitting out to avoid PK. Nothing specific about thieves or shamans or paladins. Sure there are specific mechanics of the game that exacerbate the problem, but they're beyond the root of the issue.

So, the question becomes "What, if anything, can or should we do about this?" I don't have a good answer, but I would like to have a discussion about it. I did brainstorm a bit to get the ball rolling.

1. Improve guild-issue.
* This would at least help take the sting out of a full loot, but I don't think would have a large impact on the core problem. We could also tie it to monthly bloodshed or paying some sort of guild dues.

2. Soulbound items.
* Would certainly help the issue of loss, but is a major change to some fundamental aspects of the game.

3. Reduce gambling costs.
* Similar to improving guild-issue, this seems like a band-aid. It helps with re-equip, but doesn't address the problem of someone spending weeks gathering rares and then quitting out to avoid their loss.

4. Do nothing.
* I do think this is a valid option too. We could just accept the fact that there are aspects of this game that run counter to human behavior and it's just not going to be for everyone. Maybe put a disclaimer in character creation or something.

Anyway, what I really wanted was some discussion from everyone else. So what do you guys think?
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:09 am    Post subject:

I was thinking about it and this whole thread just really went off the rails big time, emotions still boiling over. We should all try to have a bit more empathy for one another. Anyway I split off the responses into wasteland and just put the bullet points in this post for easier tracking.

Vevier wrote:
add non-rare items into a wardrobe then pay a cost for it instead of guild issue. We could discuss other restrictions like do we disallow set items or could you create a set of treant thews. Obviously you couldn't put in rares, but you could pay the gold value (maybe plus another fee?) to at least get basic equipment

Mikoos wrote:
do nothing

Xenyar wrote:
Wyvern eyes and blue steel can hold you over until you have gold/time to gamble better pieces

tayyah wrote:
hat value comes from the dude looking to kill him FOR it. If you take away that, you take away the value of the items. I get it. No one can wants to lose their stuff. That's the whole freaking point! If you remove the risk you literally remove the fun.

Ashlyn wrote:
I'd like to see better guild issue or cheaper gambling

Stephen2Aus wrote:
capping max items looted at 2

Vevier wrote:
a bigger lag on sacing to prevent the pain of the sac 1. spam, or at least allow you a chance to get back to your corpse before its all gone.

Davairus wrote:
power quitting is used to secure a gear advantage + a game rule that says "no quitting to avoid IC consequences". With like "A pattern of established behavior will be punished harshly"

Vevier wrote:
short-term reduction in gambling costs within like a half hour of getting pk'd to help take the edge off. I'd also like to see Aanam get a special currency (relics?) so it's not just gold.
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Mikoos



Joined: 03 Nov 2012
Posts: 474

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:35 am    Post subject:

I recommend joining a cabal. Players to support you (usually) and you have a more buff cabal set from the cabal shop iirc.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 7:24 am    Post subject:

Having reviewed the original post and the spirit of the replies, I felt overall this was the outcome of a judicious effort to make saves way harder to obtain, which was then given relief by the gambled items - those requires pouring in large amounts of gold (i.e. time). The deep investment raises the severity of the items being lost considerably and the fact it can all be stolen so easily adds significant discouragement. One thing's abundantly clear - it cannot be left to a choice between using end-game gambled saves or the level 10 rings from the sewers sea hag, with an abyss both in between and after.

Therefore (dont worry, this will later also all be repeated in the patch notes) I made the following revision to the saves offered:

1. Update to make rares more competitive.
* both minor/major globes are now containers (not huge. but decently sized enough to keep your "saves set" in. so that we can be amused by the steal instead of just feeling pity)
* it is time to get new identifies for several rare staples:
** moonstone pendant, black sun medallion, cloak of mist, black velvet cloaks, gold scarab ring, and mashadar's now-unique ring
** boots of protection, pink slippers, helm of spellturning for the rare non-ring/necklace options
** suggest also check some healer-oriented flails and maces
* there is a new unique low ave dagger with -100 hp and great save vs maledictive for jerk thief

2. Non-rares:
* a new non-rare "ring of closed minds", providing correctly-scaled save vs mental for level 45 mobs, was added to Gasteride's prison.
* the billowing white capes are not anti neut/anti evil any longer.
* the belt of life has gained AC and saves on it to push it into "useful" range.
* the "brilliant lavender and green stone" improves constitution instead of mana

Jewelcrafting (a.k.a. "cheaper gambling" lite):
* a design was added for a "ring of defiance" (save vs spell rings) i.e. 1 crude diamond + 1 unfinished diamond ring + some gold. It is in Liberty.
* a reminder that there is a "pendant of protection" design already

Upcoming:
* patch will alleviate the horrendous AC penalties on "saves vs category" gambled items.

AR's freedom of full looting sets it apart from the MMO's so is definitely a critical feature and key part of its appeal. We should remember too the mage classes can be rendered toothless by just added too much easily obtainable saves.
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 2:18 pm    Post subject:

The thing about looting in AR... I'm rather used to being looted in general at this point, and if anything AR players are not as bad as can be found elsewhere. Back when RuneScape had competitive Free to Play PvP in the Wilderness originally (before they removed it for several years due to concerns over real world item trading and botting), unless you were very careful about not taking the offense (which would put a skull over your head), dying in the Wilderness would almost certainly cost you everything you had been carrying and wearing at that point.

There are other MUDs which have even nastier looting tendencies than AR (I'm not going to name them), part of which seems to be the mentality of the player base in one case.

Still, one thing I especially like about AR, and the looting aspect makes it that much more appealing... The PKing action can get really intense, and even though I *can* get some adrenaline rush from playing Wolfenstein 3D on Dosbox it's nowhere near the same feeling. Actually playing against a human opponent (or sometimes even multiple opponents), and also not needing a high-end graphics card or special hardware or a console to be competitive make AR a game I can enjoy with an eight year old PC.
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