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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 16 hours.

Tiered player killing
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tayyah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 597

PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:30 am    Post subject:

Yo, you didn't answer my question man. Is this problems someone new has been like, The full looting and power pking is a real turn off for this game?
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Arunore



Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:36 am    Post subject:

I know Heralds and Mystics merged or something like that. I don't know how all that stuff works now so I'm going to just talk outdated. You will know what I mean.

But there use to be a way for a Mystic or a Herald or both to represent a Cabal. That could be a really cool thing to have a Newbie represent (maybe call it something else other than represent) at a certain point through their practice. That way the duties of teaching this Newbie doesn't fall on just that Coterie, but now a Cabal has a Newbie to teach and a possible future recruit.

However! We should all strive to teach and to learn. I firmly believe this is everyone's job here.
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Arunore



Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:39 am    Post subject:

I will take this responsibility, and I will teach a fellow Thief Newbie everything I know, and then his final test will be to rob you blind and then kill you and take everything you own, and then delete.
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Stephen2Aus



Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:41 am    Post subject:

Oh sorry, tayyah. My answer:

- It's not me hearing directly from any of the newbies that tried us.
- It's not for me, I wouldn't pick introductory for any characters.

It was literally just my best guess at "why would people not stay? this place is awesome..."

And my guess was "maybe they had a bad experience getting dunked by silent PK, or maybe they just sit there having NFI how to play and no way to feel like they're getting constantly mentored"


I reckon back in the day, when we were all stupid newbies, there was _always_ someone around to ask our dumb questions, teach us how to re-equip, rank us up to 20, kill us and start again, every single day

Nowadays, that cycle can take a long long time, and it can probably feel a bit lonely. So after struggling against that, I thought getting even a small setback like listed above might be enough to tip people over the edge.

You know, it's not the event itself, it's the loss of progress, and potentially daunting "Oh, that took me a week to finally find that fiery dagger, I don't wanna do another week to get a new one"


Anyway, enough rambling... I hope I explained clearly though where my thought pattern comes from Smile
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:06 am    Post subject:

I have a hard time putting myself in the newbie's shoes. I have a very clear memory of the very beginning playing AR for the first time. First and only mud I've ever played. It took me a couple minutes to figure out that you just type 'n' to move. Then I remember asking people to get me mithril eq because I didn't know where it was even though I'd been shown before. lmao. So I was definitely a huge newb back in like '04 when I started.
But I have absolutely no recollection of what took place between those events and becoming 'competent.' I cannot remember how I survived the learning curve and began creating cabal leaders. But I think it just takes a certain amount of tenacity. Because I do know for certain there were 100s of rage deletes between those two events. Maybe you can make it take less tenacity with these ideas you have here. But in the end I think this game will only ever be playable by people who have it, so the fix will only be temporary and perhaps delay the inevitable at best.
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Kornhole



Joined: 15 Aug 2012
Posts: 370
Location: Melbourne, Florida

PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:06 am    Post subject:

I agree with Xenyar and to some degree, Bladefurry. I love AR and I think one of the main reasons is the learning curve. I have been playing a VERY long time and like the idea that the effort I put in learning is an advantage I have over someone new, but perhaps that is because I don't PK heavily, currently. To take away the looting in AR, IMO, would be extremely detrimental, and barely beneficial. IMO
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:24 am    Post subject:

Arunore, I think you meant to say that it is the truth.

Need one of you elite tier guys to stream AR on twitch, show your heavy breathing and speedy typing as you track someone down and display your evil cackle as you loot their shiny things. Thats a terrific idea.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:49 pm    Post subject:

If you are worrying about retention the main thing I see with it is tayyah's point which got lost in the flood. There's a very easy reason for people to leave. Its because its human nature, to be more likely to stay with a community of like-minded people, that they feel they have stuff in common with, people they can connect with, comfortable with. I think you can honestly just forget about newbies at this point. Assume no newbie who tries AR out is going to stick around. You dont have to be a newbie to conclude you don't fit in here. Example --- when someone doesnt follow the rename policy, and you're the only person who feels annoyed enough to experience immersion break due to it, its like, well guess I wont play here thats fine. -1 player right there, probably a vet even. But, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. We have had plenty of unnecessary losses just from those sort of trivial things. The most common thing I've heard people complain about (especially newbies) has been getting silent pk'ed.
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Vevier
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1642
Location: everywhere

PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:08 am    Post subject:

Dav, it sounds like you don't WANT newbies here. It often seems like you don't even want vets here, with the way you attack anyone who dares to post something you don't agree with.
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Kalist19
Emissary


Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 1153

PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:34 am    Post subject:

This looks like another thread to move to the wasteland so people don’t see the type of crap the implementor is posting.

Don’t forget about newbies. Newbies are the best. They should be cherished. Maybe you were being sarcastic or joking and it didn’t translate well in text.

“Silent pk drives newbies away” wow that’s great Dav, you identified something that doesn’t attack specific people. Can we explore that more in another thread?


Last edited by Kalist19 on Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:56 am    Post subject:

I guess the truth hurts. Maybe we should post-mortem Eowug again so you remember.
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Kalist19
Emissary


Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 1153

PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:11 am    Post subject:

Sorry did Eowug quit because of a character name?

I wasn’t being sarcastic - if there’s something that drives newbies away it would be great to discuss in another thread.
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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:15 am    Post subject: This post is awaiting validation

This post is awaiting validation
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Vanisse
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: inside a tree

PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:10 am    Post subject:

this and other threads have already identified some pretty obvious turnoffs for anyone who is not used to this environment. everyone has their own reason for staying, and their own reason for leaving. all you can do is make the environment more amenable to staying if that's what you want to see. think about the kind of player you want to retain and who you actually are retaining and who you might if you tried different suggested approaches. and then think beyond the game. people choose to spend their limited time here. if they find out the negatives outweigh the good things they get from the experience, they will just do something else.
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Faelon
Emissary


Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Your moms house.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:58 pm    Post subject:

I haven't played in a while. I've tried a few times, but I can't seem to find it in me. Like so many older players, I still troll the forums, however.

I can't for the life of me figure out what the hell is so wrong with suggesting something. Free flow of ideas is never bad; just so long as they are in fact, only ideas.

Blasting someone over and over, with ridiculous emotional reactions, simply because you dislike an idea is ludicrous, unhelpful, and down right pathetic. If you already have the ENTIRE authority; what precisely is the issue? Ignore the thread, or respond with a casual, "Nah bro," or (heaven forfend) give an explanation which is succinct and lacks the emotional rot and vitriol.

You wanted to know what drives people away or stops people from starting this game. Read through this wasteland fodder with a neutral perspective. It's mind numbing.

PS: I don't agree with the idea in the original post. In anyway. That does not mean I am going to assume people don't have the best interest of the game in mind. I still have a massive amount of affection for this game. I gave twenty plus years to it, so it holds a special significance to me and I'd love to see it flourish for another twenty.
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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:48 am    Post subject:

Who here is full lootings new players? I have a really hard time believing that someone is full looting someone that has random trash items and getting pked in about 10 seconds.

I can agree with Dav's sentiment because of the guise you are using because you don't want to get full looted which I find hilarious. If you don't want to get looted, stop looting people you kill. That legion berserker changed the game when he would curb stomp people and didn't loot. More and more people took that course of action.

Instead of focusing on equipment maybe give ideas as to how you can incentivize people to not delete their characters over full looting because that is what you really want. Maybe something like with each kill you get your over all dam roll goes up 1 point or maybe you get 10 hp for every lvl 50 kill
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Stephen2Aus



Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:54 am    Post subject:

People definitely silent PK newbies. Wouldn't surprise me if they sometimes sac the trash too. But I'm making that up as much as you are. Real stats would be amazing, or exit interviews with leaving newbies.

Get this straight: I don't care about this stuff, I wouldn't pick introductory. This suggestion isn't for my benefit. Do people struggle to understand me suggesting something that isn't about me?

Very frustrating to read these responses. There is no "guise" here, ffs
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Resatimm
Takes the Cake


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 980

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:03 am    Post subject:

Newbies will stay here when they match with us. THEY match with us. Not WE match with them. It's always been that way. We are not going to make fundemental changes to retain newbies whenthe goal posts will move all the time. Every MUD is its own niche. The newbie looking for our niche will stay. The ones that dont match will move on.

I think most of you forget Dav is the owner. He is pushed to reapond point by point to suggestions and thats where the impact is happening and paint is being transferred between fenders. Do you think Stryth, Virgil, Burzuk, Avindus or Odoacer would respond point by point? Hell no. They'd lol or snark everyone silly.

There are 3 IMPs. There is 1 owner who is also an IMP making it 4. Keep in mind, this IMP-Owner (Dav) is doing his best to keep to the vision of Burzuk/Stryth from way back. They are the OG and love em or hate em, their influence is still present. Dav is a traditionalist. Suggestions are fine. Suggestions that water things down are derisive and cause apoplexy at times. You are all better off with full out nerf suggestions.

Dav's reply dial is always set to 11. It just is. At least every owner AR has had has been consistent. (I'm a grammar geek and i dont even know if "has had has been" is appropriate lol).
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:25 am    Post subject:

If I sound frustrated its cuz you guys are reposting the same ideas, repacked into something which sucked just as much the first time. Why can't it ever be something cool, like I dunno, the queen of the oozes overlord could clone herself in combat so you end up fighting two of them. Oozes multiplying makes super sense and overlords are dope. Adding challenge like that is GREAT for newbies. What a great vehicle we have to teach, the goddamn overlords. Don't you think? See my recent addition to the dhampir that makes saves matter and lets players actually experience a deteriorate right before a blindness. You guys would not surprise me if you start a campaign to nerf that overlord IMO and in doing so remove the "newbie hint". However, it is obviously going to be the case that you'll get to level 50 knowing fuck all about pk'ing and sucking at survival if that's all it takes to get there.

And meanwhile you chuckleheads are posting to remove steal from the game and remove looting. How about this for a novel idea. Addition by addition, instead of addition by subtraction. It costs you nothing to tell a player who is level 30 that he needs saves on. That helps them. Tell a newbie to train defenses first, use a purple potion on the vicious talamaur instead of filing bug after bug its too hard. Its not and shielding newbies and making life easy does not help. Comfort only breeds weakness. Getting looted is a super-strong incentive to get better.

There have been tons of complaints about *vulturing* but I cant think of many people complaining about full loots off the top my head. But vulturing is a lot.
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 470
Location: Yes

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:27 pm    Post subject:

I've written stuff sometimes during the course of this discussion and then not bothered to write it here... Here's some summarized points.

1. Somebody mentioned having elite AR players stream their play. For the longest time, Heralds have been able to do this in-game already, though it requires consent from the person they want to watch. While this is not necessarily a bad idea in and of itself, being a Herald (or now, I guess, a Consortium member) is a great way to learn about AR.

2. I have not really noticed anything in the newbie guides here on the forums which goes into proper depth about the good sides and bad sides to potentially "good" combinations for a newbie to try when starting out (I am specifically looking at race/class as an example, though using alignment by extension may be helpful). I've been tempted to write pros and cons about some combinations I have considered newbie-friendly but never followed through with it... On a somewhat related note, the reason why my first major character of note was an elf thief was due to a discussion in the role-playing forum about the potential the combo had for RP.

3. However (and this is the major flip side to the coin), it does take time to learn AR, and when you have players who have been playing for YEARS if not a decade or more (last year I passed the decade mark myself, albeit with some significant breaks), it is easy to get frustrated or not know as much. For example, it took me a year before I even knew (because somebody told me!) that you want to quaff a purple potion for sanctuary immediately AFTER the tick to maximize its duration.

4. I do agree with Resatimm's point about people staying when they match with us instead of us matching with them. The fact that we have no graphics is already a major turnoff for most people (read: those who don't or won't play MUDs), and beyond that, RP and PK are both structural elements of the game. Part of why I like AR is because there's no "internet speak" except for on the newbie channel, which is due to the enforced RP environment. Likewise, the thrill of the fight makes PKing fun.
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