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oathbreak and demons

 
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Vevier
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:13 pm    Post subject: oathbreak and demons

Continuing a thoughtful discussion from the logboard...

Oathbreak paladins become demon elves. When this was first introduced, only eradicator pallys could be oath broken, but since then we've added the option for manual oathbreak of any paladin (a super cool feature imo). Elves become demon elves-cool. The only other race that would violate basic race restrictions on align through oathbreak is the dwarf.

So what do you think should happen to dwarves? Are they consumed by demons like elves? A great point was made that we had demon elves in the game before so it wasn't introducing something new, but there are no existing demon-dwarves.

Another thought is that it might be cool to herald a new age of demon infestation from Acadia and allow demons of every race.

What are your thoughts?


Last edited by Vevier on Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bladefury



Joined: 11 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: This post is awaiting validation

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Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 428

PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:21 pm    Post subject:

I haven't played a demon-elf, so I'm speaking a little from ignorance. Are there stat changes? Vuln changes? If so it might be quite a bit of work that would be better spent elsewhere to add demon varieties of all the races. If we were going to do a full on world-event a-la the Fell invasion, that might be a different discussion.

I think something should be done with dwarves. I don't think just changing them to duergar is right, because they're really an entirely different race. Elves don't change to drow. But I think demon-dwarf is a little lazy. As you say, demon-elves existed already, and it's a nice bit of lore. Paragons of Light, the Elf, gets seduced by a demon and falls. Dwarves are different. There can be neutral dwarves, so the demon angle doesn't really fit as well. Maybe something with their greed. Dwarrow? I don't know. Maybe someone more versed in fantasy lore could suggest something.
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:33 pm    Post subject:

Honestly,(not a slight) I think this whole aspect slipped through the cracks a little bit.. so I'd bet they're still trying to piece some of this together with lore, stats, decisions and so on
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Vevier
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:57 pm    Post subject:

The only stat change I'm aware of is that dmElves gain a holy vuln, so I'm not sure if there would be a prohibitive amount of additional coding required. We already have some of the base code (I'm assuming) for this kind of change in the custom race features. if that isn't the case, one of the implementors can speak up, of course.
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Olyn
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:51 am    Post subject:

My preference is for the cool demon stuff to be limited to oathbreaker eradication elves and other fallen paladins to be outcast and ridiculed.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:48 am    Post subject:

This one seems pretty easy. It'd be a dwarf infused with blood of the demon king. So that's a curse he can only lift by killing the demon king. Its a red dwarf for this fallen star, if you like. Ba dum tshhh
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lionSpyre



Joined: 07 Sep 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:02 am    Post subject:

@Xenyar, of course this fell through the cracks! But as the great Bob Ross, there are no mistakes, just 'happy accidents'.

@Vevier, I fondly look back at the Fell Invasion. A demonic invasion from Acadia is very cool, but I think others have made a good point that there is something special and specific about elves becoming corrupted by an external demonic influence.

@Davairus, if you're spitballing some ritual where the dwarf literally has to make some blood-pact to infuse themselves with the power of a demonic king... that's dope. It should definitely be more focused on the 'Underworld' style demons, rather than demons of Acadia. Then you kind of get into the territory of 'The Dwarves dug too greedily and too deep.. and unleashed a Balrog'.
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maeve



Joined: 04 Jan 2020
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:47 am    Post subject:

I may come back when fell dks and abyss invokers are a thing again...until then, shuffling the shit around does not create anything interesting to actually spend time and effort.

Whole character progression is so linear that once you play all the classes, there's really little to no difference besides the racial flavor. I've logged on several times staring at char creation screen thinking wtf could I possibly play that may be something new/interesting, but i've yet to come up with anything. Everything is either: been there done that or cba to play some shit druid.

Lack of customization past the pre-defined skillsets is really fookin' stale.
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Rothak



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:15 pm    Post subject:

Don’t forget Half-Elves, could turn and roleplay half-drow instead of demon. *shrugs*
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:12 pm    Post subject:

Well, maeve, you seem to be disregarding (at the very least) monk tattooing, paladin oaths, the raknos/vampire transformations, and the ability of healers and shamans to choose religions and affect their choices of boons, plus there's also joining cabals. I think the number one thing we could do to make the game more diverse in options right now is probably just speed up how quickly mages master their spells. Those classes are stuff you can literally just not feel like playing because of the amount of training. Even with the surges. Perhaps something involving reading various books and scrolls, you could skill up a create food point by reading the gnome village book of create food. Maybe instead of casting spells over and over, cast them in a cave and skill up from listening to the repeated echoes. etc. We could have rooms dedicated to training spells just like we do scarecrow pedestal location.
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maeve



Joined: 04 Jan 2020
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:49 pm    Post subject:

Don't get me wrong Davairus, there's been lots of good changes towards diversity and def not here to diss your hard job, its just that the core gameplay can be very repetitive for majority of characters. Could also just be me and its a personal problem though.

About caster training, yes, you're right, it's tedious af. I imagine the "mastery training" system is in place to reward playing, casting spells and becoming a stronger, master mage over time. But in reality, its setting up scripts to afk for hours and hours just to be viable in competitive PK or to even be inducted Razz

So given the fact that there's so many spells you'd need to master, i can definitely see how it takes the joy out of playing while being time-limited. Logging in every time just to idle train your skills because otherwise you're shit can be very monotone. One can argue it helps with character investment, but given how many instant gratification alternatives there's out there, one has to re-consider the effort and reward for caster classes.
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Kornhole



Joined: 15 Aug 2012
Posts: 347
Location: Melbourne, Florida

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:35 pm    Post subject:

@maeve, I think you might have hit the nail on the head with the comment about it being personal. I think there are too many choices, and with each split of each class it makes it even LESS newbie friendly. (One of the things I see people complaining about most often). My two cents.

Back in the day if you had played each class to 50 once, you would know what to expect fighting against it. Nowadays....IDK WTF to expect out of any pally (my fault for not making each kind and figuring out I suppose) or most druids....sure the CLASS skill can help, but it lists ALL, not each racial. I think the more we split the classes the less friendly the game will become and that is a VERY bad thing, people already bitch about the learning curve.
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