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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 3 hours.

Make bards great again.
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twerpalina

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Joined: 16 Mar 2018
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Location: Utrecht, Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:05 pm    Post subject:

think my post came out the wrong way, the training feels overwhelming because its boring, just as it would be fully training up an invoker. I have done both a couple of times and i just cant be assed to ever do it again.

Bard lacks a little something to be a force to be reckoned with ON ITS OWN in PK which I base my class-choosing on, but i dont think this is the point of the class because for a group its still the best support class you can get with unique buffs and aoe heals.
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Xerties



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:33 pm    Post subject:

Perhaps the rare instruments could have a bonus to the song level, similar to spellcraft? Like the difference between hearing something played on an Amazon Basics violin and a Stratavarious. The latter will sound much better, i.e. be more inspiring and thus more powerful. Or they could lower the mana cost, since they're better crafted and thus easier to play.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:19 am    Post subject:

we discussed that for druids and rejected it a while ago. the idea was just due to the vast amount of spells a druid has though. Do bards have that many truly worthwhile songs? i'd be content with an instrument adding access to several additional songs while it is equipped. like you can have a rare (or maybe not even rare) fiddle to just play home sweet home and dont have a skill issue to cast recall. just go get the fiddle and learn to play that. maybe instead of learning a song you can take up proficiency in woodwind instruments similar to monk anatomy
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Vanisse
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:40 am    Post subject:

my issue with song training is not the speed per se but that 1) it doesn't have a channel version (unlike mages/clerics) and 2) it spams the screen a ton. I think having a hum (like we talked about previously) and some way to channel would be great.

gaining proficiency in various instrument types and them unlocking different songs seems nifty - if phantom flute can be sung into other instruments. (phantom bassoon dum de dum)

p.s. dav they already have trance. it's a bit gimpy though
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Xenyar
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 4:01 am    Post subject:

Davairus "Wel I actually think bards are close enough to a tipping point where I can name 1-2 skills to just completely break them. e.g. giving them trance. "

Vanisse "p.s. dav they already have trance. it's a bit gimpy though"


Priceless.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 4:24 am    Post subject:

The game is half a million lines of code so I don't mind making a mistake here and there. It took what, 15 posts for somebody to point out they have a gimpy trance? And then I have to actually go look in the code and find out that it isnt a gimpy trance. Its a full trance. It means bards are broken and evidently nobody cares about it. Glad someone finds this funny.
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Vanisse
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:38 am    Post subject:

it feels gimpy having recently played casters/clerics where they can recover 1.5x or more the mana regen of the bard. it is not necessarily gimpy for the purpose of the class. it is gimpy in relation to other classes. i don't think you have to worry about them stalemating warlords because their song costs are generally higher than any caster and their regen is lower than any caster. they get cure light for 20 mana and cure serious/crit for 50 mana. compare to healer (cure light 8 mana, cure serious 14 mana, cure crit 25). that said, my impression is from taking a bard to about mid 30s recently and deleting so take my comments with a grain of salt. i do think there are things that could be adjusted with it but would need to do another deep dive all the way to 50 to test.

due to their songs and design, bards obviously shine in a group role much better than solo. because of that, their appeal has declined which shouldn't be that surprising given the current mostly 1v1 pk scene and smaller playerbase. just an example of how powerful bards are: in a group scenario e.g. fighting a swinging boss mob, a bard could arguably even outheal a healer who has to focus on 1 or 2 targets and alternate, at least until the bard's mana ran out. as a healer i struggled keeping on top of groups larger than 3. for a bard, the bigger the group the better. now that i've typed that i am curious to try out a support bard specced for mana regen at 50. ha. when i last played bards (>10 years ago) mana regen items didn't exist and i think everyone stacked hit/damroll.

i'd also argue they are not boring (they have decent flavor you can bring yourself with compose, or simply via the good vs. evil lyrics, etc., very good all around utility, and decent survivability) but it is pretty tedious to train songs when everyone is used to facilitated training, and all of the songs are 20 mana or up. that is probably why concord hymn and mirror were added since the early bard days i'm more familiar with. i think if you are worried about trance you should be more worried about concord hymn which is extremely powerful, and not only for the bard. also, because of the class design, bards are almost required to go out of their way to rp with others in order to use certain skills/songs (e.g. duet) and form the groups that allow them to shine. that is actually what i always loved the most about bards, that they naturally encouraged community interaction.

another random thought i had was related to the halfling thief naughty-o-meter. bards could use the same meter with their range of songs and skills - from benign (a soothing melody; healing of laughter) to prankster (lust seduction desire; lure; devils dance; panhandle) to downright mean (weight of burden, scourge of the black widow, vertigo, paranoia).
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Andrael



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:44 am    Post subject:

Going to start this off that I am by no means a PK-er. I feel like if a top pker studied and dissected bards, they could be a force to reckon with.

Personally, being a fan of bards, I would like to add in that I feel their biggest 'gimp' is most debuff songs have to be sung out of combat. The key ones you'd want to get off, lost spirit, emancipation, etc... Which with a drow/elf very little issue there, maybe make those songs harder to sing in combat than outside? And I would personally like the uppercut dislocation to last an hour or so more than it does, especially for the amount of lag the skill causes.

As for the mana, as long as I've had concord hymn up, never had a single issue with mana, but that does come at the cost of battle hymn. Which I don't know if battle hymn works like other frenzy-like effects that cause a hindrance to parry, from what I've observed. Clash of Titans and Four seasons does give good damage, and I found spamming the melody over using faeries is better for healing at 50 with concord active.

I don't want to immediately point to specs like with other classes, but I feel it could add some flair to them. Personally, I do feel like bards are in a good spot, play one neutral, make friends and never be left out of the group. I had my most fun on a drow bard, the autosneak is amazing for getting off songs like lost spirit, weight of burden, and scourge to harass so I can flee murder them.

Also, I'm not saying that they should get all the rogue weapon skills, but clobber would be nice too.
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:44 am    Post subject:

Bard trance can't be more gimped than a caster trance because trance is trance unless there is an exception coded in gsn_trance for bards but there is not, nor there is any exceptions in update_mana for bards, so there should not be any more gimped regen for drow bard than a drow invoker. The heals of bard are more mana-hungry because they are aoe, so as i said, its a great group char and not really fitting into the solo PK theme, which not every class has to fit imo. If every char is going to be designed around solo PK aspect then it takes away from playstyle variety.

And why post something as belittling as that Xenyar is beyond me, coulda just provided feedback instead considering your crazy amount of playtime fighting vs bards. But yeah, can't really buff bards or they may threaten your bottom feeding right!
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:24 pm    Post subject:

and yes Andrael, Battle Hymn is like group frenzy, which only does not reduce parry but also nerfs mana regen, which may be the reason why ppl feel mana regen being gimped for bard trance.

If I would play bard at 50 to PK, I'd focus on the casting(singing) aspect, using savebreaks and their pretty extensive debuff arsenal to screw foes over, shaman style. Concord hymn is amazing for that.

I think a lot of people underestimate bards because they don't know how the songs exactly work or how OP they can be with right debuff sequences, Crisbin showcased a bit of that but i feel that bards are stronger than ever, its just that few classes have had so many buffs that it makes bards a bit underwhelming to PK against them. But then again, GROUP CHAR! Unique buffs and debuffs are worth playing for if you got time to invest. I'd definitely play a bard if i could skip the monotone training process!
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Kedaleam
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:22 pm    Post subject:

Yeah, there aren't mana issues after probably 30 when you get a reasonable mana pool and can keep hymn up endlessly, aside from the type you should get when you spam.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 8:10 pm    Post subject:

Anyone with a basic understanding of the calculus can appreciate that healing is a matter of rates. How rapidly you can regenerate hp and how rapidly you can regenerate mana competes against the pressure of the other players damage. And ways to mitigate damage will both improve how much of a proportionate difference every heal makes while also reducing the amount of threat the opponent can mount in terms of burst damage (i.e. send your hp from 100% to 0% before you can recover your hp) . I am not saying this can't be fucked up. the player's aptitude for pk'ing with the class may completely stink. Its like racing a car, if you never make a pit stop, it doesnt matter how fast you drive, you can't win the race. It is not possible via the laws of physics (yet) to build a car that can begin the race with enough fuel to finish the race, because fuel adds weight and degrades the car's acceleration and handling. However that is totally untrue in AR. Video games are not bound by laws of physics. Which means a class can both be extraordinarly imbalanced and yet still played incompetently, especially by those players who lack mathematical sophistication.In short, you cant blame the car. Dodge + staff + trance + healing is one hell of a combo. This class should not die to anything short of stunlocks and thats just a matter of having enough mitigation and hp to beat the odds
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:20 pm    Post subject:

“Players who are lack mathematical sophistication” and “still played incompetently.” I felt those two keenly. Lol.
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Thorgoth
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:16 pm    Post subject:

Also you guys are talking about their mana regen and spell cast like it’s the thing holding bards back but they get a song that halves all song mana casts in half. I think bards are excellent the way they are, have you seen their card throws? They literally do oblits through sanc. Also, I played a drow bard legion and was told to stop pking because people were complaining that a bard was curb stomping them all around Serin. Just look at how their songs stack and how to combo them and you’ll be screaming nerf instead of buff.

Although the custom instrument just sounds cool for RP / flavor, especially since you end up holding cards in your hand 99% of the time since phantom flute covers the gamut on must have songs.
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Vanisse
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:58 pm    Post subject:

welp. i deleted at 33 so no flute Sad concord hymn is at 22. mana costs are HIGH without that song. to the point of avoiding twilight entirely because it was too expensive (1/6 of my mana pool for 20-25 hp? or even failing it? no thanks). bards also don’t get the easy mana cost curve that mages do for facilitating spell use at lower ranks. they don’t even get the “easy casting for intro level spells” that every other class gets - their first song, a soothing melody, costs 50 until you rank up. that’s 50 mana for 5-10 hp if you are lucky, when you start with 100 mana, so yes, for almost half the ranks of bards, everything is stupidly expensive. some people like zooming to 50 and won’t notice this at all but i prefer taking my time. woe to me i guess
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Resatimm
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:18 am    Post subject:

Fuck you and your calculus Dav. Suck an egg!
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:42 am    Post subject:

Ah, scientific illiteracy, such a cool thing.
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Ballmerz



Joined: 16 Jan 2022
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:11 am    Post subject: Scourge

I've actually been enjoying playing a bard, there are some short comings on a few things, but I'll wait and see after I put a lot more hours in it. At the moment, when you sing scourge, and the spiders attack, if they get the last hit, the group receives no XP (It happened more than a few times, so I had to stop engaging with it), is this by design? Would it be a major change to have the spiders actually join the group like other summonable pets?
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twerpalina

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:11 am    Post subject:

spiders suck ballmerz
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Solmundi
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:01 pm    Post subject:

Dirt kick, devil’s dance, flee/murder would be my bread and butter.
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