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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 11 hours.

Q2 2023 Patch: Revival of the Necromancer
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lionSpyre



Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 2:29 pm    Post subject:

Like I said, I think it’s too early to tell whether this change broke Jotun paladins. But, if I were to make any changes down the road, it might be something easy and impactful like reducing their dex, int and/or wis by one. This would impact their AC, mana and defenses.

Whenever people go like “great stats? It’s broken!!!” I think of Minotaurs. They have really excellent stats, resistance to bash, and a virtually non-exploitable weakness. But they’re clearly not broken..

I think for Jotuns, we’ve got to wait for players to find the right adamantium weapons and then assess how those fights are going in general. I personally don’t know what the best ones to use would be, but I’ll be looking now.
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Grayden



Joined: 21 Jun 2005
Posts: 632
Location: Spokane, WA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:57 pm    Post subject:

I agree we need to let it play out a bit, because if it ain't broke...

@Dav if we need a nerf vs small characters it should be harder for Jotuns to hit small category characters. The logic being those races are too close to the ground or fast instead of just Jotuns are a big target.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:17 am    Post subject:

If you want. we can just do it now if you want, we barely started the patch and I dont see anyone power levelling a jotun paladin.
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 596

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 1:53 pm    Post subject:

Nobody is saying Jotun is broke. They have(had?) a vuln, and it was there for a reason. Up to Dav to make sure the availability of adamantium weapons is sufficient to take advantage of it.

Nerf vs small characters? lol. If you did that to jotuns, then you need to do that to all large size. Which doesn't really fit imo.

Add material search to the codex. I'd like to see the progress of the jotun "vuln", and it makes it easier to search for shit.
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 596

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:13 pm    Post subject:

And jotun stats are far superior to minotaur(98 vs 103 total stat points, similar str/con and a 23 wisdom for 4 pracs=more training sessions co convert to HP) throw in arcane and cold resistance, as well as a better parry/shield block over a minotaur. This is why there was a vuln in place to balance these things out.
Again, nobody is using the word "broke" except you. I have valid concerns for the balance of jotun race, that's all...Curious how is comes out in the wash.

As mentioned before, fire giants and illithids have massive vulns too, and are easily taken advantage of, including by two-handers. Fire giant's have shit magic AC which makes the vuln worst in game. Jotuns can be pally/dkn.. which is the class with the HIGHEST AC in the game. Pierce vuln on +400ac, or ice damage on 10 magic ac? I'm certainly not saying remove ice or slash vuln. Those vulns are there for a reason...same as the pierce vuln was.
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Solmundi
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Joined: 29 Oct 2021
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:31 pm    Post subject:

They don't have a great mana pool.
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 596

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:49 pm    Post subject:

Pallys don't have a great mana pools, unless you're an elf. I bet you still had between 600-700. Rhoa(human) was 674.
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lionSpyre



Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:35 am    Post subject:

I agree with most of what your saying, @Xenyar. Codex search for materials would be great, and vulns are in place to balance out stats. I also agree that if you penalize jotuns attacking smaller targets, than you'd have to do the same thing for all giants. I just made the 'broken' comment because, at least the vibe I'm getting from this forum and logs, people's brains are already going there. But you're right, it could be an over-dramatization.

With the examples you gave, I think those come with caveats.

In terms of minotaurs, not all stats have equal value to a class. Take FG warriors versus minotaur warriors. Total stats for minotaur vs FG is 98 to 94, so similar gap between Jotun and Minotaur. Minotaurs have 2 more dex, 2 more int, and 3 more wisdom. Only thing FG beats Minotaur in is 2 more strength. So minotaurs win big in the defenses category, get 3 pracs vs 2 for more health, can more easily one-prac etc. But I think we can all agree FG warriors are stronger than minotaur warriors. At the very least, I've seen more successful FG warriors than minotaur warriors. Giant bash obviously helps, but the point is that the +2 strength is arguably worth more than the minotaur's higher dex, wis or int. So, the fact that minotaur has +1 str and +1 con compared to jotun is noteworthy. Also, think about how much slith improved with just a +1 to strength?

And as for the vulnerabilities... the strongest ice weapon is like a 21 ave (not including Xel Morak which can occasionally pop off an ice attack). Whereas the strongest piercing weapons are what, 2h 33 aves? There are tons of options for really strong piercing weapons. So yeah, you may have 400+ AC with best-in-slot, but you're getting hit with weapons that are 50% stronger than what fire giants are dealing with. It's a tricky balance, and based on previous log boards, all of this was considered when changing the jotun piercing vuln to an adamantine weakness.
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Bladefury

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Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 520

PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:49 am    Post subject:

Uhm I had 900 mana on my Jotun y'all are silly
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Solmundi
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Joined: 29 Oct 2021
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:02 am    Post subject:

A mana pool isn't just how large it is, but how quickly it regens.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 8:12 pm    Post subject:

jotuns are vikings from space btw.
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Rothak



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 256
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:09 pm    Post subject:

For witch-carving, will there be more patterns to carve different types of weapons? As it stands right now, the only available weapon is a dagger.
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Dalero



Joined: 13 Oct 2004
Posts: 100
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:46 pm    Post subject:

So I'm a smoothbrain and all I can see is awesome and huge relic sink, and I want to see this expanded! I found this by going back to the witch and typing in 'enhance', which I missed earlier.

Tatiana the witch says 'I can provide the following enhancements, depending on the weapon's level:'
Tatiana the witch says 'Level 10. Earth: minor health boost. 10 relics per trial.'
Tatiana the witch says 'Level 10. Arcane: minor saves boost. 10 relics per trial.'
Tatiana the witch says 'Level 15. Tip: add a small piece of metal material. This will require a metal bar and 50 relics.'
Tatiana the witch says 'Level 25. Finesse: strike with slightly better accuracy. 50 relics per trial.'
Tatiana the witch says 'Level 25. Power: strikes are slightly more damaging. 50 relics per trial.'
Tatiana the witch says 'Level 30. Element: strikes are now fire, ice or lightning. 100 relics.'
Tatiana the witch says 'Level 45. Accuracy: strike with much greater accuracy. 250 relics per trial, and a rare item. Stronger rare, stronger effect. Replaces finesse and earth.'
Tatiana the witch says 'Level 45. Might: strikes are much more damaging. 250 relics per trial, and a rare item. Stronger rare, stronger effect. Replaces power and arcane.'
Tatiana the witch says 'Level 45. Blood: greatly increased health and saves. 500 relics per trial, and a rare item. Replaces ALL other enhancements.'
Tatiana the witch says 'Level 50. Adjective: change your dagger from vicious to a word of your choosing. 1000 relics.'
Tatiana the witch says 'Level 50. Etch: etch a name on your weapon. It must have an adjective enhancement first! 5000 relics.'
Tatiana the witch says 'To enhance, just use the magic words, e.g. enhance dagger element fire.

So this is a real crafting weapon crafting system with some amazing possiblities. Changing the material to a metal based weapon? adding elemental damage? Adding hp/hit/dam? CUSTOM NAMING??!?!?! NEAT!
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Dogran
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Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 1794

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:05 pm    Post subject:

That's awesome, but I can't imagine investing 5k relics to name a weapon haha. Not when you can die and lose the weapon.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:37 pm    Post subject:

It is centaur witch so you might expect to see clubs, spears, staff, bows and maybe even axes and flails. However its not a mistake that this opened up with just dagger. The main concern I have for this NPC is that the available products have rare counterparts. It is fine if we add it later but the elemental enhancements should relate to the available rares, otherwise it is going to turn mandatory grind to be competitive. We see that problem already with forged armor exceeding level 50 rares. It should definitely be possible to just get rares instead of this stuff. Even with identical stats its still the better option because it doesn't purge, but when its better than rares it really amplifies the effect of pry/steal, makes the full looting feel sadistic etc. So thats all avoided by being just dagger for now. it still needs a little more TLC to be able to govern the allowed element per weapon type. Once that's in place, it shouldn't be a problem to add more weapons, and of course more quests to earn those stencils.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:43 pm    Post subject:

A bug with damage of zombies both before and after strength damned going back to the first age was fixed today, figured I should mention it here. The bug was pretty much just rounding errors on these calculations. This bug affected the mobs base average damage, not its damroll.
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