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Jotun Vuln Removal
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2023 11:48 am    Post subject:

Treants get a lot of unique stuff, they can share a fire vuln
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Olyn
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2023 1:00 pm    Post subject:

I'm not opposed to fire, but it's worth considering how many generations of Jotun will have lived inside a volcano with that retconned fire vuln? I proposed a material weakness to stone (the earth itself since they're non-terrestrial space men) before seeing the fire idea here.
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2023 1:35 pm    Post subject:

Fire is alright, it's something, and I get it thematically. Stone would be cool, and I like Olyn's reasoning. Though limited on weapon options...
Don't understand pierce removal when it's identical kind of vuln to Illithids to slash and gnomes to smash....but whatever.
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Kalist19
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Joined: 19 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2023 3:14 pm    Post subject:

Following Olyn's line of thought (non-terrestrial spacemen) I think the disease vuln makes way more sense (someone mentioned this earlier).

Just like war of the worlds - they haven't had thousands of years coexisting with the pathogens endemic to Serin! They'd be super susceptible to them. Could be the actual disease attack (might need more disease weapons?) +/- plague/poison/dysentery.
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Mr. Forgotten



Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 539

PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2023 3:35 pm    Post subject:

I like the disease vulnerability argument more than the fire one, if we're talking pure lore here. I really don't like retconning stuff, and to make them vulnerable to fire while living in a volcano seems really silly to me. Honestly, I think the best course of action here is to reduce their stats slightly and open them up to the warrior class.

"They are both master strategists and effective warriors"
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Rothak



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2023 12:14 am    Post subject:

I’d be down for a Jotun warrior.
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2023 12:43 am    Post subject:

I second Jotun warrior
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2023 1:57 am    Post subject:

So there's fire, pierce, disease, stone, mental vuln, whatever. We can just make a poll for whatever vuln to put on jotun. I really don't think it matters much, as long as there's something in place which is a decent foil for paladins and dk's, and keeps them decently competitive vs giants

However its at least a bit inaccurate to say that the space jotuns are from redhorne.. its not the case. I totally ignored the redhorne jotuns when I made this race. The frost giants in forgotten realms (a very similar setting to AR) say they are from a place called Icewind Dale, which the closest counterpart for AR is to say that they are from Winter. I'd say the same should be true for our jotun race. also, redhorne volcano is an ecological disaster caused by war (per the jotun helpfile) and by over-mining that zone. So that serves to explain why the volcano is there. those jotuns there are just an npc tribe that got used to it.
TLDR: The actual jotun race predates the redhorne area being a volcano.
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Ashlyn



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2023 2:00 am    Post subject:

Plus, imagine dk fireballs against a jotun paladin. You deserve it.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2023 2:46 am    Post subject:

Thought about that one, yes, but there's also the fire with fire set to wear against it. Its good gear and I like that a jotun player would get cocky and avoid using it. I also like the idea of launching backstab with fiery daggers. That's pretty important. A disease vuln is going to do fuck all for a thief trying to fight a jotun paladin. That's why the vuln was pierce instead of something else... so that dual backstabs would be sweet. I do favor the fire vuln strongest for this reason. I think the best option by a mile, really. There's also fiery fangs set for low levels, which is kind of nifty. This thread has a lot of good points made about the lore though .
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Phostan
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2023 2:38 pm    Post subject:

Disease doesn't make sense really, giant races are super hardy and thus very resistant to disease generally. Stone is lame, because what are my stone damage option weapons? Really aren't any widely accessible decent damage ones. These guys have better int and wis than a lot of other races, so mental vuln seems silly. I think fire works best, unless you plan to move them back to pierce vuln (maybe the 2h damage fix makes it more tolerable, unsure.)
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 3:47 pm    Post subject:

A material weakness to stone would just mean an inability to wear stone items at this point.. not a damage increase. We could still try the material weakness out though. What I like about that suggestion is that stone gear already makes up some of the mind-range heavy rare equipment and weapons (obsidian armor and huge stone clubs for example), so it forces a jotun player to scratch their heads about what to equip for holy/unholy armor. There's also some obvious end-game stone pieces I can think of. Also, it definitely lets us do a bit of tuning. We could make magic multi-plated girdle into stone since its off an armored statue, change bone bracelet to stone bracelet etc. Its a more moderate change than just slapping a fire vuln on it, but we would have to do the legwork to ensure that loss of access to stone equipment has an adequate effect at tempering armor class and hit/dam somewhat.
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Phostan
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Joined: 08 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 9:28 pm    Post subject:

Hell, give em both, vulnerability to fire weapons and inability to wear stone. Legit though, I vote both.
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2023 3:07 am    Post subject:

Phostan: "unless you plan to move them back to pierce vuln (maybe the 2h damage fix makes it more tolerable, unsure.)

That's probably the best idea... Can barely(still can marginally) tell the difference between one handed and a polearm at this point with that change. I'd be willing to wager if the two-handed nerf came before jotun vuln, it wouldn't have been removed.

SDav, question...when did you say the two-handed bug was accidently introduced? Year or two ago?
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2023 6:19 am    Post subject:

Vulns are still going to be there no matter what combat style. Generally its damroll that makes vulns really sick. Think about it... a character with 50 damroll and an ave 20 weapon might be doing 70 damage, right? Then you multiply that 70 by damage modifiers like sanc/vulns. The damroll provides huge component of final damage, and it operates well no matter what weapon type you have, combat style you have. In practice weapons have parry issues and things. This means when I gave a two-handed bonus to damroll from strength, it was actually a very nice thing to do for the two-handed weapons. Especially nice for the classes who don't have enhanced damage. A player might just choose a playstyle where they get a lot of hitroll instead of risking the RNG, missing dirts, and that choice lowers their damroll considerably and makes vulns not as great.

Actually let me put this in bold text for you guys incase I die or something -

If we want to ever buff two-handed weapons again, we should not buff enhanced damage. Instead, we should buff the two-handed weapon average stats of two-handed weapons so that everybody benefits.
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 470
Location: Yes

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 6:55 pm    Post subject:

Chiming in a bit late but as a counter point to the above comment about damage and vulnerabilities... I had maybe 30 damroll (just maybe 32 or 33 but no more) when I managed to land an OBLITERATE on Paeix with a straight-out murder as Militha. Damroll isn't the only stat that matters with regards to vulnerabilities, it's how heavily the damage is multiplied (I had unholy strength while fighting a paladin and he had no aura, so not only did he take more from lacking aura, but damage multipliers stacked to a ridiculous level to the point where people didn't realize that was a regular attack because of the damage type involved)
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 1:27 am    Post subject:

I don't think the jotun players would have been worrying as much about being caught with no aura vs unholy strength. Its just pierce vuln in general. Let me just put it another way. We want jotuns to feel like a smart choice when looking for a "large size" paladin or DK option to take on fire giants, stone giants, evil treants, etc, (the other large races). Being large enough to take - and dispense - some size large bash is pointless if you are just going to die in 2 rounds to huge damage pierce polearms. What'd be more realistic for a jotun is he's a cocky guy that becomes more angry (afraid) and reckless as he loses hp, so that maybe by the time the jotun is below 20% health he's now put into a frenzy every time he takes more damage, i.e. extra hit/dam plus the parry penalty, and I believe that might impact mana regen also. Might be more fun to play that than yet another vuln'd character.
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lionSpyre



Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 7:58 pm    Post subject:

This is a really cool idea, Dav. Although I also get the sense that this could work in Jotun's favor, rather than against them, if played well. Combined with diamond skin, this is could be downright dangerous.

Maybe you can replace their diamond skin racial ability with this frenzy idea. Right now diamond skin just kind of gives them extra health for free with a really long cooldown. Maybe change it to this frenzy idea, but like you said, have it activate at 20% of max health rather than hitting 0.
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Xenyar
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Joined: 26 May 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 10:27 pm    Post subject:

Giving the most powerful race(stat wise/no vuln), combined with the most powerful class(we all know its been pallys since the changes), free frenzy when low health???? HARD pass on this "racial legacy" idea
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Kalist19
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Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 1153

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:31 am    Post subject:

At the very least can the diamond skin thing be turned off for now while they have no vuln? Unless it already is turned off and I didn’t figure that out yet.
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