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Spell reduction or enhancement with weapon type

 
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Nakachi



Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 221

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 2:17 am    Post subject: Spell reduction or enhancement with weapon type

What if weapon type advantage could be applied to make an effective way of either decreasing or enhancing spell damage?

- Say an Invoker is using a shaft(mace). Warrior is using a blade(dagger or sword).
- Invoker goes to use Hellstream, but the damage is reduce because due to weapon type advantage the weapon is able to reduce the damage.(this could be implemented by making up some story.. ex: Cavan found a way.. etc..)

- Now let's reverse it. Invoker uses blade and Warrior uses shaft.
- Invoker's Hellstream does extra damage due to having weapon type advantage and none of the damage is reduced.

- So, damage is increased from spells when the mage has weapon type advantage, and damage is decreased when the mage does not. And if the weapon type is the same(i.e. shaft vs shaft) then no damage is added or reduced, it would be normal hellstream damage. Which is still pretty scary.

So.. Let me know what you think of this? This idea could be applied to all spells and such..
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:49 am    Post subject:

But mage uses weapon ward to completely disable weapon matchup. This is more ninja-magic territory.
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Rem



Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 10:01 pm    Post subject:

Speaking of ninjas I feel they're slightly lacking. Ninja's have nothing better then your average rogue weapon advantage skills like uncanny attack, sidestep and clobber. How about since they almost seem like a hybrid class of warrior/rogue, giving them some combat style advantage techniques to use as well, giving them versatility between using weapon advantage techniques, or combat style techniques.

Obviously the warrior combat techniques wouldn't be suited for the ninja's style, but I'm sure some combat techniques with a little flair could be jimmied up.
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Vertas



Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 1168
Location: Ewa Beach, HI

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 3:35 am    Post subject:

I think what he really wants is certain items and stuff that increase spell damage, and there already is, its called "afflictive break", and im pretty sure everyone can agree with me to say that hellstream doesn't need to hurt anymore than it does now...
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Grayden



Joined: 21 Jun 2005
Posts: 632
Location: Spokane, WA

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 4:28 pm    Post subject:

I think the spell system is fine, and weapon ward works great, but seeing as how you mentioned the Ninjas.... Maybe give them weapon knowledge mastery, so like a weapon ward for ninjas. This would keep them from being hobbled, charged, and out of weapon disadvantage. I think that would be a good enough boost for Ninjas.

Grayden Grim of the Bloody Fields of Flesh

p.s. I think the duration for focusing your weapon knowledge should be a tick longer then weapon ward.
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raginggnome



Joined: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 135

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 11:03 pm    Post subject:

should give ninjas concentration and like disarm while throwing caltrops or something weird... basically kinda chain a few skills together like trip and nerve or somthing... that could be cool
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crazyhorse



Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 627

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 11:31 pm    Post subject:

raginggnome wrote:
that could be cool



That is hardly reason enough to make ninjas uber. Hey. That would fuckin rock. Lets do it.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 11:48 pm    Post subject:

crazyhorse wrote:
raginggnome wrote:
that could be cool



That is hardly reason enough to make ninjas uber. Hey. That would fuckin rock. Lets do it.


Their skills already do secondary things like that... clobber can do dirt, sidestep can do trip, and uncanny attack can do rake. Its not an original idea and shouldn't be praised as if it were one. But besides that, if they played with concentration-like stuff too, its going to be less "cool" and more "throwing them a useless bone" like elf warriors. Spin bash anyone? Anyone using spin bash? No. Why not? Because elf warrior can do a hobble twice as easily and its a better talent? Maybe. Because the choice of skill link is kept "safe" so it isnt cheesy like being able to do nerve/caltraps, leaving such technique rather redundant except in some specific scenario you have yet to figure out?
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Rem



Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:20 am    Post subject:

How about making it so that ninjas can actually perform those moves while dirted, kinda like how warriors and zerkers can with their combat superiority moves.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:09 am    Post subject:

First of all lets review an old favorite thief skill, circle stab. We see that this skill does some awesome damage. But if the thief is tanking, he can't use it at all. This allows the thief to do his fun awesome damage, but doesn't make him the bees knees against warriors, that wouldn't be able to tank that kind of awesome damage, and thus get slaughtered all mage-like by a player that has good defences of his own.

Now with this old skill (and actually, a philosophy) in mind, do you see why the thief skills get cancelled by blinds and hobbles? This way, you can use them thoughtfully while tanking, but most melee-using opponents have less thoughtful but laggy ways to prevent you doing that. We also have dirts rubbing out extremely quickly, so I can't believe that there is any problem with that. It has more utility than circle with those ample restrictions. Keyword ample. We either have some way for a fighter class to disable it, or we have to make it disabled the way circle is, or we have to nerf it to something like kick standards.

The issue isn't too complicated - the bottom line is warriors are A) doing too much "unblockable" damage, which is encroaching on the thief melee playstyle. and B) now able to destroy defences to reduce other melee classes to mages. Basically, theyre doing everything. Obviously that makes them a popular class, and thief happens to be on the brunt end of this being the fewest hp and no magic escape tricks w/ nerfed hide on top. So for them to struggle and seem to need skills.. its a real shocker isnt it?

Overheadstream and sideswipening bolt are the worst offenders, and that's because of scripts turning them into win-buttons (they're supposed to be difficult to perform maneuvers, requiring combat style advantages, but scripting has compromised that security). So sorry but the logical conclusion is nerfbat that, not the route of "buff thieves which means buffing paladins which means buffing shamans which means buffing warriors which means buffing thieves". I guess hobble also contributes to very one-sided damage (especially coupled with a high strength race since that bruteforces typical thief parry as easily as it circumvents a fortified dodge),... again, the security of its use is compromised by scripting..

I'd ramble a bit about how classes should be.. but I think the average solace groups or even typical eq-mob fight would show it best. Thief is.. tanking? Warrior is two handed for more damage with overhead. Pretty obvious whoring of overhead there - enough that groups are willing to forego the groups real tank for it and gimp the damage of a more damage-focused class in the process. Polearm ranking should be left to paladins and to warriors at 50 who want to train it/overhead. Warriors should be mainly tanking and having difficulties putting out damage so that they need thieves/mages alongside to put out damage, which conveniently need those warriors to protect them. Right?

So... as much as it pains me to knock your suggestions.. I'm gonna have to say they're not much good. Basically, its more of the same shit they already have, its been done and its there for use. And doesn't help the class because the same problems are still going to exist. i.e. not enough counters to the crazy warrior stuff. Other classes have them. Actually those rogue skills are really quite buff, look at clobber for instance. You can get free disarms with that even. Maybe if the things that matter are fixed, we won't need that help either. Shall we wait and see, or just clang our saucepans for new skills..? We might just find out thieves are fine in the long run.

(If you insist on clanging the saucepans, please, try to do that with new kinds of envenoms and poisons, because that's an area that I would think more fun/diverse to explore than we've done. But don't bother to remind me of this "we need stuff because warriors rock us" BS)
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crazyhorse



Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 627

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject:

I forgot the (/sarcasm/) tags on the last half of my response...

"It would be cool" is not a good enough reason to change anything.
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Rem



Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 12:33 am    Post subject:

If I'm not mistaken, sidestep is nullified by hobble and hobble on rogues (since most rogues have either average/low con) lasts alot longer then dirt kick.

So here's a breakdown. Dirt kick = no rogue skills. Hobble = disabled rogue skill. If we're not gonna hit saucepans for new skills, then let's unnerf the skill usage rogues have.

1) Since in the helpfile says rogues are awesome with unconventional attacks, let's have it so you can do an uncanny attack while dirt kicked. Yes perhaps dirt kick only lasts a few rounds, but to a rogue being unable to use those skills for a few rounds can mean life and death.

2) Clobber, as it's name implies seems to be a more bruteforce attack, requiring less finesse and accuracy. Let's have it so you can use that one while blinded as well since obviously if you're dirt kicked and still able to hit with regular attacks, I'm sure you can clobber them kind of how warriors and zerkers can with an overhead attack.

3) Yeah sure, maybe sidestep requires more finesse and I could see that one not being able to do while dirt kicked. So keep that one nerfed while blinded. It's supposed to be a finisher anyways.

4) If you want envenom to be used more, then unnerf it and allow it to be used on all daggers, all swords, all spears, and arrows. Hey you want it used more, then allow rogues to be able to use them more.

5) Change nunchaku's to exotic weapon, so it can be used for uncanny attacks like how a ranger can make bows to use for his bow skills. Besides, I don't think there's anywhere else in the game you can find a nunchaku. In my books that classifies a weapon like that to be pretty exotic.
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Mandor



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 794

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 3:23 am    Post subject:

actually what about manual disarm. is this skill even used anymore? its a leftover of being a key skill that you can actually automatically have now by being in superior stance or style whatever and pressing overhead or whatever. Perhaps manual disarm should be changed to work better when at disadvantaged style. this would give more options to thieves and warriors, and puts a non-damage but theoretically useful skill back up there with overhead and clobber, except you dont do any more damage like these two skills do. its not like someone could chain disarm, overhead before the (good) other player flees or wears appropriate counter again. good or bad?
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Slade
Emissary


Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 666

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 3:26 am    Post subject:

Uh I dunno about you, but if I was a thief my edge weapons would be envenomed 24/7. Poison is a good effect. Use what you got.

And manual disarms are good with blindness dust, some dirt situations here and there (rogue dirt is long after all), and in use in group fights where dirt -> no weapon makes someone go splat quick.
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Mandor



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 794

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:03 am    Post subject:

although currently manual disarm works better if you're superior to your opponent in weapon type, in that case you could use a skill that does lots of damage AND auto-disarms as a side effect. so, I dont really see the point of using regular disarm if your opponent is blinded. my idea was simply to have manual disarm be for disadvantaged, as a way to gain advantage while not doing any damage, instead of being an ancillary skill you could just as easily auto-get through other skills. or would this be unbalanced?
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