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Mikoos says 'sneak/hide has been nerfed too much'

 
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:18 am    Post subject: Mikoos says 'sneak/hide has been nerfed too much'

Mikoos wrote:
I feel that sneak/hide has been nerfed too much in the name of realism. I know that fighting against a rogue sucks, but it’s fun as hell to play one.


I'll use this post to put details about the skills and we can discuss what to do below.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:11 pm    Post subject:

I agree, but I think the "right" answer is a middle ground between the current penalties to sneak/hide and the old version. I haven't played a rogue in a while just races with innate sneak so I'll keep my thoughts to just the sneak portion.

First, sneak is definitely an important skill to have. Helps you out in flee/murder, sneaking up to surprise someone, and running away. That said, there are some realism concerns with sneaking around with a massive two-handed weapon.

Second, there are two different considerations to take into account when it comes to the operation of sneak. (1) Class skill sneak; and (2) innate race sneak. Imo, the class-skill sneak should have the higher penalties.

You pick ninja/thief to assassinate/throw ninja stars/blackjack and be a pest. The sneak seems like a small part of the bigger picture. Hide seems more integral to these classes so relaxing the penalties on hide would seem to make sense to me.

For the races with inherent sneak, however, the sneak is one of the reasons you pick that race to begin with. And the fact that its an innate ability for that race seems to put its importance on a higher level and more important to retain.

One point on realism: like if we're really worried about realism what difference does it make if you're wielding a two-handed weapon or it's in your inventory? Seriously, we're suspending disbelief that a halfling can juggle 40 items in their hands and could walk around with six weapons strapped to their back.


So my suggestions:
Hide should revert back to the old way. Should be able to hide wearing/holding anything. If concerned about realism, perhaps two-handed could just have a slightly lower probability of success.

Sneak should vary based on whether it's the class skill or innate ability. Races that innately have the ability to sneak should override the two-handed check. Classes that have the sneak skill should be subject to the new sneak regime where they lose it wielding a two-hander.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:00 pm    Post subject:

Fact dump

(A) hide is probably much more effective than you realize in dark rooms.
the bonus is so great, even with offensive adrenaline it probably still is working 100% of the time if mastered. and offensive adrenaline wears off after about 40 seconds real time. i also made a change to ignore the players light for the room_dark check if he is currently sneaking (note i said sneaking, not hiding). this was a silver bullet change to autosneak races because they actually also have infravision. Possibly, we need to give access to infravision to thief and shadow classes if we dont have them already. Anyway, just pay attention to the lighting in the room when hiding.

(B) a way to hide inside, under and behind objects was added. So yeah you lost the hide wearing giant spear thing. You also gained the ability to hide inside some furnitures, sign posts and boats. I think you can actually carry a cardboard box around and drop / hide in it without issue. And that bypasses both the terrain check and the adrenaline check. this is missing from the hide helpfile, so I do apologize for that. (Currently you have to type : hide <obj> to hide in a thing. )

(C) the "glance" thing. i think the game is flagging other people in some scenarios so you can be hiding but still impossible to be hiding from them. I don't understand why we need this personally.
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BlackWidow



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:10 pm    Post subject:

Personally, I think hide is in a good place right now... Anyone who complains about hide being ineffective clearly hasn't tried taking off their light before hiding (I figured that out before reading this thread).
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:35 pm    Post subject:

Question about hide <object> mechanics and suggestion.

Can you attack <object> if you're the aggressor?
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:44 am    Post subject:

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't sneak as a racial ability already leagues better than the skill? Even completely ignoring the success chance at all.
Sneak the ability isn't permanent. It also increases movement cost significantly, and works only in appropriate area/sector types? Whereas the racial ability works always without fail and does NOT increase movement cost?
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:15 am    Post subject:

hamsamwich, what you wrote is correct, and it gives me a thought.

The original change to hide (i.e. adding adrenaline) was intended to just make it a gamble. That was by design. You were to hide and pray for success. I know Burzuk, Zafrin at the very least had agreed with each other should be that way. It was previously 100% effective, however. One of the ways a stealth class (rangers included) appeals is to people who have anxiety issues. They like feeling a bit more reassurance and comfort knowing they have some say in their environment. we used to reply to threads like "Why are you trying to duel me when i am not interested" with "eh just play a thief and hide" so that player is comfortable staying logged in, with the ability to dictate when they fight and on their own terms. they were not safe from each other, so we had forum topics about honor among thieves and whatnot. We put that into evermore

there was no suggestion intended in that ramble



ergorion: you can examine the object and find the thief in it, or in the case of the cardboard box, just pick it up
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Mikoos



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:58 pm    Post subject:

I felt amused that people had issues with sneak and hide while wielding a giant glowing, humming staff or something and tried to use realism as an excuse to nerf it. And it’s like yeah, sure. What about Necros who raise the dead? Haven’t seen that happen once in real life although I’d like too.

I feel that rogues are kind of an entry class to the game for newbs. We’ve all heard of warriors, wizards and rogues(which is almost always defaulted to thief in context.) They’re mainstream or at least should be.

Mages and warriors are pretty straightforward...but thieves not so much. The two-handed thing is unnecessary. Rogues hide and sneak around? It’s what they do?

I probably wouldn’t have minded much if there weren’t so many forest sectors. Shout out to rangers though.
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hamsandwich



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:47 pm    Post subject:

yeah, piggy backing off what Mikoos said, quiet movement is op as all hell compared to sneak. Especially when you realize they get pathfinding too.

Caveat: I haven't played a rogue in an absurdly long time, and I've never really played a successful one ever. So I am by no means an authority for what rogues are good and bad at and have no vested interest in making them better. Just stating facts as I see them.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:34 pm    Post subject:

OK lets try to remember we are just talking about "change" here, not "buffs and nerfs". The adrenaline penalties proved unpopular across the board, over all thieves, and you can probably tell it comes from being a hybrid of stealth/action. If we can't agree on what to do, the usual answer is to branch.

e.g. a master druglord spec = add thiefweed to reduce adrenaline. brew poisons and limited potions, and envenom weapons
e.g. a master burglar spec = two-handed hiding and better traps, and eq counterfeiting
e.g. a master brigand spec = create your own assassin garb, finish people off with throwing knives and and wreck faces

This way you can just "pick your poison"
Maybe this is just where we are now
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:08 pm    Post subject:

Oh damn. I'm actually really intrigued by those thief specs. I feel like those clarify the different types of thief mentality and with the unified thief class as it is, you can play with those styles in mind but are kind of gimp with all of them.

Druglord could be geared to that more attrition-based style of play (kind of like demon dks or healers)
Brigand could be more aggressive pk that could potentially stand a little more toe-to-toe with fighters.
And the burglar could be for that person who rolls a thief just to blackjack people and steal their sacks—they can't pk for shit, but they're there to annoy the hell out of you.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:55 pm    Post subject:

yeah i wasnt thinking anything outrageously hard to understand its stealth spec (burglar) / combat spec (brigand) / hybridized utility spec (druglords). sounds like we are on the same page. we've been here before. lets get it done this time
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:42 pm    Post subject:

Given the offensive adrenaline is pretty short now (if you land a blackjack successfully, it runs off before you are even out of the lag), and such an unreliable hide anyway. I suggest to you all that we just go ahead and fully disable hide with 'offensive' adrenaline. It will feel much more fair to the other guy to get a proper chance to bash your shit in when you've failed that blackjack.

So you will have 3 states
100% calm/mob - 100% hide
some adrenaline (evasive - minor duration) - nearly 100% hide, but the person who you trifled with would have a better chance to see you if they are in the same room. i was thinking like the spriggan vision odds here.
offensive adrenaline (trivial duration) - no hiding

Let me know if this seems unreasonable as a baseline. If it does I will continue with what else I have thought ahead on it.
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Ergorion



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:50 pm    Post subject:

I think if you go that route, the offensive adrenaline should have an explicit message that says "Your blood pumps too hard to find a hiding place."

And for the other states, have the success or not be invisible to the rogue.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:37 pm    Post subject:

that sounds perfect Ergorion
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Olyn
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:33 pm    Post subject:

I'd like hiding in/under objects to still be allowed with aggressive adrenaline even if it echos "Yngfre hides under a dilapidated boat." to the room when it happens.
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:08 pm    Post subject:

Oooo. For hiding behind objects, would it be possible to code a default pose? Like, if you fail to hide under a boat and someone walks in they see:

"A large, boat is here with Yngfre's foot sticking out."

And the player's name could automatically be highlighted yellow or something.
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Dogran
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:31 pm    Post subject:

That would be hilarious.
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Vhrael
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:25 pm    Post subject:

Maybe not have it name the person hiding, but something like “A small boat begins wobbling curiously.” Just a message that says something happened but doesn’t give away their exact identity. 🤷🏼‍♂️
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:10 am    Post subject:

The point with giving away the identity is when the hide fails. Rather than having the hide fail and just have: Yngfre is here with his thumb up his ass. It adds the element that he attempted to hide and failed.
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