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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 13 hours.

Orderly - Defned
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Andrael



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:30 am    Post subject:

Wasn't there a rumor that orderly gear reduced the chance of giving an opponent a wild attack?
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:49 am    Post subject:

Yes I think he/we did see it as a higher probability of doing basically nothing, the extreme burst rape was evident as soon as I rolled Maxlhorn and plugged a few people. But that probably looked like a worst case to him and not something that a dark-knight could do equally easily and far more ruthlessly than a suicidally raged zerker
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Olyn
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject:

@Matrix - the expected value of using a wild weapon would be (50+190)/2 *10% + 100*90% = 102
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Matrix



Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:13 pm    Post subject:

oh right it's 12% more average damage on attacks that are wild, but not all attacks are wild

that's why you don't do math while drunk
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 691

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:43 pm    Post subject:

2 warriors exactly the same race and stats, one with an orderly weapon hitting the other with weapon or combat advantage for an extended period of time. Do the same with a wild weapon.

Do you guys have the ability to run 2 npcs just battling each other then see how much damage each did? I have zero idea what is easily capable and what is just a time sink.
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Matrix



Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:19 pm    Post subject:

that's not really meaningful stiehl. As said before, the big orderly items aren't always weapons. You might have an orderly shield that's as strong as the other guy's wild weapon. And the power of a wild weapon is in its randomness, it's that 10% of your attacks have a chance to deal big damage or low damage. If you're in a PK and you don't deal big damage, you run away and try again later. The power in an orderly item is its lack of randomness and its consistent high stats, so there are no surprises when using one. So it's all up to your preferences as a player and your character's abilities.
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 691

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:43 pm    Post subject:

Gotchya. I think my problem is it is hard to conceptualize those power balances. Maybe it IS the lizard or squirrel mentality where I see repeated big shiny numbers. I just can't, in my mind, wrap my head around a piece of armor, for example, compares in power.

I am not a mathematician or a probability theorist, so it probably does all equal out somehow. I think the easiest answer for me is to just continue playing chaotic...just the number of items to choose from makes the probability of me getting one higher and I don't need to understand the Order flag to have fun.

I thought, for some reason, that if a wild weapon tried to hit someone with order armor, it would negate the wild portion of the attack. Was that a thing at one time?....EDIT - just saw that some people already mentioned this portion.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:50 pm    Post subject:

I think there's something like every time you succeed a strike because of weapon advantage its automatically a wild attack. So far from reading thread sounded like neither the chance or the damage were estimated correctly. The devil is in the details..
Also, stiehl, I sieved the excel docs and found them convincing, but also ran that test before they went live.
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 470
Location: Yes

PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:55 am    Post subject:

From what I recall of the help files (and I'm not looking at them now), wild weapons supposedly are better in the long run in terms of damage dealt.

To answer the "chaotic vs. lawful" thing by Stiehl26... Being lawful actually has some advantages. Being chaotic means you'll get judged more harshly by the Justice cabal when apprehended. Whereas you can potentially get away with either only losing two items for a first judgment if not chaotic, or paying off the WANTED flag, chaotic characters always get the worse end of the deal, losing more items from a first apprehension and eventually losing the option to pay off the flag with repeated offenses. Furthermore, being apprehended can (and does more often for chaotic characters) result in losing everything.

Oh, and wild items are contraband; they're automatically confiscated and do not count towards the limit. Wielding a wild weapon in town is also stupid; either you lose the weapon, or if you're caught doing so and refuse to drop it, you'll get flagged as WANTED.

Those are all relative disadvantages to being chaotic. There are actual advantages to being lawful, though some of them are more superficial than others... First of all, you can hire a constable at Tir; the constable will fine attackers who attack you near your guild entrance, Tir, gate guardians, and if he is out, Dagnir. Furthermore, you can become deputized if somebody becomes a criminal; this gives you the option of attacking the criminal (so long as you do not break other laws in doing so) in town and attempting to assist Justice in rooting out the criminal. Also, one benefit, which in my time has rarely been utilized, is that lawful characters can serve as witnesses under the law; two lawful citizens, upon giving sworn testimony, may cause somebody to be marked as a criminal even though the Justice was outside town; one of them may serve as their own witness to a direct assault.

TL:DR: I wouldn't call being lawful a "handicap" or something which I view as such when playing a lawful character.
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Davairus
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Joined: 16 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:21 am    Post subject:

The orderly weapons could do 3 points per hit more damage, and on average that is a graze of extra damage per round. Whereas with the wilds, you could deal double damage on every single attack. I mean, probabilities and points of damage matter, but potential of wild weapons is absolutely staggering damage.

It used to be possible to deal a wild attack on a charge, and eventually somebody was found sleeping and charged for unspeakable things by one, and they died from full hp as a dwarf level 50. These weapons are nuclear at level 30. Viscerally we all know that and we use wild weapons
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 691

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:29 pm    Post subject:

Back to this subject. Davairus, is there any plan on bringing some parity between the wild and non wild weapons?

At this point, and I can now say I have some valid perspectives on the 2 sides of the coin, you are absolutely hamstringing yourself by choosing anything other than chaotic.

Blackwidow brought up some advantages, but really those seem obsolete in the current state of the game. I saw one Justice in the realms and they have long since deleted.

Perhaps have order weapons work on chaotic only. "Your orderly strike disrupts the chaos in your opponent, ***DEVASTATING*** them"
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Matrix



Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:30 pm    Post subject:

I'll post it again

Stiehl, you don't know how Orderly works. The majority of orderly items are not weapons. If you think chaotics are OP then just play chaotics.
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 691

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:07 pm    Post subject:

I didn't delete your post Smile

I did the breakdown of orderly vs non orderly I think in the post for items including armor. Compared them individually and I definitely don't know how orderly works, other than the wild items (armor) are more numerous and when compared, orderly, on the surface, are not any better than the wild items.

I think I've asked and maybe I missed it...what DOES the orderly flag do?

Anyway, it's fine since I seem to be generating some tension with the posts. But yeah, chaotic from now on.

For some analytics:
A quick search of orderly weapons shows there are about 30 and there are about 60 wild weapons total. 5 of the avg 20+ orderly weapons are Unique

There are 12 wild weapons with averages of 25
There are 3 wild weapons with averages over 30
7 of these 15 items are unique.

4 of the orderly weapons are anti good and 2 are anti-evil.
There are 8 order weapons with averages 25 - 2 are requestable, 4 are unique so only 4 other weapons would be in circulation.
There is 1 order weapon with an average 30 - 0 requestable

A quick search of the damage attribute anything 2 or higher shows:

There are 16 wild armor pieces with 2 damage
There are 3 wild armor pieces with 3 damage
There are 2 wild armor pieces with 4 damage
There are 9 orderly armor pieces with 2 damage - 2 requestable
There is one orderly armor piece with 3 damage - not requestable
There are no orderly armor pieces with 4 damage

I added the requestable data to because someone thought maybe the requesting had something to do with it
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Vevier
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1642
Location: everywhere

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:25 pm    Post subject:

Orderly restricts an item from use by chaotic characters. Usually they are better than average, so its a slight penalty for choosing chaotic for wild weapons. There has to be some give and take.
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Matrix



Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:43 pm    Post subject:

whoever's deleting my posts can eat my ass
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Olyn
Immortal


Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 3244
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:52 pm    Post subject:

One of the biggest advantages of orderly eq at the moment is they're always available when more people are playing chaotic.
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 691

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:08 pm    Post subject:

In that case Matrix, it was me....I want some of dat ass. J/K. Subject dropped.
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