Paladin's patch

[Faelon]

I don't think you're insane. Honestly, paladins are probably the most equipment reliant class in the game right now. They lack the ability to 'surprise' anyone with a kill. That's just not going to happen. So if they are going to be the stand in front, I've felt for a while that their defenses need a buff.

When I played Gairn, Tristen and a few other Paladins, I had to gun for getting end game shit fast. After that, I would get a dual parry weapon almost instantly. This was before ardent mace of fury was around, so golden shortsword was the only answer. That gave me options; suddenly I could go into three combat styles without it being a total joke. Set parry for those setup for pure output, shield for dkn's (pretty specifically them) and dual wield for shield users/mage classes. The point being, that in order to be elite on a Paladin (or at least in the upper pk echelons) you are totally reliant on end game high level shit.

Paladins are nice for tanky, but frankly, I've felt like their utility has suffered since the advent of monks. They should be able to stand in front as damage sponges. That's no longer the norm. They are out healed by monks, out tanked by monks, and just generally out utilized monks for the position of stand in front damage sponges.

Dual parry as an add would be a good idea, giving them way more utility. Another ability added on top of that maybe sometihng mid grade, such as ironwill isn't bad. Paladins inability to pull a DKN 'fuck you up with all the damage suddenly', maybe rationalizes a "Go ahead and bash/trip me, IDGAF. LEEEERRROOOYYY!" mentality.

[Merlandox]

While we joke about paladins having wrath and sanc, the fact it... Wrath does a shit ton of damage with... low dependency (from helpfile).

Now if you're giving them dodge, dual parry and shit, then i'll say nerf wrath in return. When i read this thread, i thought about the time when keepers first formed. The warriors have a spell that MANGLES through sanc every round and reduces max hp, hit and dam by a lot. Sounds about right. Tanky warrior paladin wrathing your ass off.

[Davairus]

Ok, so it looks like we'll do iron will for them at the very least. I am not feeling as excited for the dual parry (would like to see how they do with iron will first).

Wrath is highest damage when the target is evil+healthy, actually quite poor on a low hp target. That makes its really good for making evils run away. Youre not going to kill anyone with your almighty grazes. The spell has obviously been quite controversial over the years. I'm concerned some you guys are hung up on the opening damage.

[Mikoos]

I can see iron body being more acceptable than dual parry.

[Merlandox]

Well, if you are a class that can heal, you can probably float your hp at 50% thereabouts? to lower wrath's damage. If you are a non-healing class, the wrath is effectively lowering your max hp by at least 25%. Why wouldn't anyone wrath for the first 2 combat rounds and then stop? How low do you have to be for the wratih to do almighty graze... the paladin will kill u with a slap if his wrath does graze.


I think paladin's are really strong against evil (despite warriors able to do weapon skills) and probably much weaker against neutrals. Let's face it, if you can empty your entire mana pool healing against the evil warrior, you're winning. No amount of barrage, sideswipe gonna change it. So why the buff needed for paladin? or am i misunderstanding something here?

I thought shamans are so gimped now it's practically unplayable....

[jaran]

Paladins need something that's for sure. I always thought it was a mistake losing dodge. Dk's got some nice changes and seem strong but pallys got left behind somewhat. Will be great to see them get a boost.

[Vhrael]

Google image search for paladin.

None of them are dodging jack shit with all that heavy plate armor.

[Davairus]

Just to re-iterate, again, I am surveying what skills/spells you guys think the paladin *should* have. Its not so much about whether the paladin is a perfectly balanced 1v1 dueller in the big picture of all the classes - I wouldn't expect it to be, in fact, for two big reasons:

(a) paladin has the highest exp cost in the game
(b) paladin has strict RP requirements

As their niche in AR is a group leader (because they have restrictive rules on what they will and won't do), I'm particularly concerned about any confusing unique mechanics they might have. Like, I see a divine might skill which makes paladin weapon damage ignore protection spell. Iron will, though a nice appealing add, is kinda the same thing. I think its good because the paladin at lease has to soak the damage, but if it leads to the groupmate getting bashed instead of the paladin, we blew it. And errantry is literally "you decide to do it alone" which is a big wtf. We've geared them towards loners and sacrificed critical group things along the way (like word of recall).

When considering what skills/spells paladins need, some thought to their group too, please. I think we are worrying too much about the paladin himself becoming too OP in 1v1 fights and not enough about the guy standing right next to him.

[BlackWidow]

Well perhaps jumping in front of a groupmate to take a blow like a Knight of Valour does should be an option for certain specialist (if not all) paladins... Just a thought. It seems particularly appropriate to me... If the ranger's grizzly bear does the same thing to protect the badly wounded ranger, why wouldn't a paladin do it for a critically wounded groupmate if needed?

[Faelon]

As a warning, if Errantry gets removed, Paladins become useless in fights. Honestly, I NEVER fought in groups as Gairn or any of my other paladins, because without it, you get fucked up.

[Davairus]

Oh I'm not saying the effects of errantry on the paladin are unnecessary.. I completely agree. That skill was traded for holy word which used to frenzy the whole group. What I can also say now is we've officially declared that the paladins usefulness to a group is literally based on a skill that prevents them being in the group. That seems rather toxic. Its something that should have been stopped dead in 1998. This is the elephant in the room that is not going to just go away.

[Faelon]

I do want to clarify my statement, because upon rereading my statement sounded aggressive. I'm all for the idea, personally, of getting rid of that skill. I just want to make sure that something equal, at minimum, is implemented in it's place. I think that's where your head space is at, so I'm certain I sound redundant.

[Mikoos]

Hmm, maybe protection could affect group members as well.

[hamsandwich]

It sounds like you want the paladin to become the tank as well as the group leader? His job is to take the bash so his groupmate doesn't?

Jumping in front of attacks is a good idea and a mechanic that already exists in game. But what a lot of other games give tank characters is a 'taunt' kind of ability. Not something that exists in AR to my knowledge but maybe something could be made out of it? Paladin forces opponent to stay in combat? Like a lag type skill but maybe they aren't lagged just can't flee? ie. can still use skills and spells. Sounds like it has the potential to be pretty OP and retarded so idk, just throwing out the idea that occurred to me while reading your post.

[Davairus]

Thanks guys you've given me plenty to work with.

[Baer]

Divine Challenge: while active, any attack that would target a group member redirects to the paladin

[BlackWidow]

the talk about taunt to force an opponent to target a character reminded me of an equivalent method I saw in the Flash game Monster's Den about a decade ago.

"orc champion issues a challenge!" and then all single target attacks can only hit that individual (though AoE still functions normally).

[Kalist19]

One thing I’ll say right off the bat is that while we haven’t been talking about it, we should remember that one of the big strengths of paladin is their GOOD alignment. From the outset this basically means that absolutely ~33% of people will not attack you, and probably a further ~60% of neutrals won’t attack you. This leaves maybe ~50% of players who won’t be your enemies and ~50% who will be. This is a big advantage over the ~100% of players that are potential enemies that an evil faces. This is the reason why it's generally easier to do well with a good than it is an evil (i.e. more allies/less enemies). The trade off is respect - harder to get respect as a good (instead of evil) because you have less of a struggle. But for pvp/balance issues it sits as an inherent advantage.

When talking about paladins wanting to be the leaders/anchors of groups, I think leadership is more about the personality and ability of the player than the innate abilities of a race/class combo. You can try to force leadership into a paladin by giving them cool skills/spells but unless the person behind that player is able to lead, the others might be reluctant to follow. That being said, I think I get your concept of them being the group anchor by having the right abilities to fit any situation (i.e. oh good, it's a paladin, exactly what we needed) - and I like that.

Paladins had dodge back in the days where saves damage was not split between aff/mal/mental, zombies and duplicates could trip/bash, berserk always gave 10 hit/dam, and rage was more powerful. Basically everything has been tweaked/balanced over time and paladins were not immune to this. I think they lost dodge at or around the same time as dark knights? I think the dodge swap for set parry + (un)holy armor all happened at once.

The idea of giving paladins an ability to ignore bash/barrage/disarm/etc really doesn't feel right. That feels like you would be basically giving great defences + second/third attack + divine might/divine sacrifice/errantry to an invoker (big damage spell). A paladin with that set up could basically go into any fight knowing that at the very least they shouldn't die because they can probably flee/run/word. At the very best they will shred their enemy with their damage/wrath.

They did used to have cure critical (back in the time I mentioned with those other guys having OP stuff) - cure critical/dodge is why elf paladins (cough, kalest, cough) used to be so popular. Dex for dodge and int for mana. Cure serious now is definitely better than nothing and the ability to heal is something that sets them apart from the fighter classes (i.e. warrior having no real ability to heal, ranger having a 1 shot herb, berserker having a trophy that makes them vulnerable because they have to sleep and sacrifice their mania). Like you said, cure serious definitely doesn't have the 'field medic' oomph of a cure crit, but it does open up that utility for them.

I don't want to be a Debbie downer and just disagree with everything!

I think that would be really cool (as said before by BlackWidow) to give them that guardian thing, where they jump in front of an ally kind of like a ranger bear. I think that really fits the picture Davairus is posting of a valliant leader who protects his group from harm.

A quick way to give them some of the feel I think Davairus is going for, is to make a change to rescue where it lags the attacker as well as the defender.
Current rescue: Ramod attacks Phostan. Kalist rescues Phostan. Kalist gets free round of attacks on Ramod. Kalist and Phostan are lagged.

New rescue: Ramod attacks Phostan. Kalist rescues Phostan. Kalist gets free round of attacks on Ramod. Ramod, Kalist, and Phostan are lagged.

I think a three 'aura' system would be cool. A paladin has an 'aura' that affects his group and is permanent (like DK vile presence)
1 - Offensive aura - provide hit/dam bonus and maybe -armor to offset
2 - Defensive aura - Saves/armor bonus but -hit/dam
3 - Healing aura - casts 'cure continual' on whole group every X seconds

I think another fun thing to think about might be a charmie for them.
It would be cool to have a squire that pumps out some extra damage. The squire could also have guardian and jump in front of the paladin to soak some attacks. You could give it a little extra utility by being able to equip it or maybe give it the ability to detect hidden (paladin still couldn't see hidden) or let it try to disarm/shield disarm or something? Not a mob with 1000hp but not one with 100hp either. Just a fun thought.

[Davairus]

[Lorne]

Kalist brings up a good point about being Good aligned though. Request for top-end gear. That's just an inherent bonus that gets overlooked sometimes.