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The event "The Assault on Taekir" is beginning in 1 day, 2 hours.

Combining Heralds and Mystics under one umbrella
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Would you support combining the coteries?
Yes
67%
 67%  [ 19 ]
No
17%
 17%  [ 5 ]
Don't care
14%
 14%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 28

Author Message
Vanisse
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: inside a tree

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:03 pm    Post subject:

The point is streamlining. Mainly they will work more closely together, and with clearer guidance. I mentioned in my original post that a lot of their existing duties overlap quite a bit. And as I also said, nothing is being deleted, so unless said ancient mystic vet has a serious problem with the current iteration of Mystics, (i.e. if they played the original Mystic cabal not the coterie) they shouldn't have a problem with the new one. It's just a different outer structure.

If there are issues with Mystics (clearly the two of you have some gripes) obviously that should be addressed. Have you previously brought up those concerns with a Mystic or Mystic Imm? Or is this the first time those complaints are being aired? If the latter I don't think attacking players is helpful. Let's try some constructive suggestions.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:12 pm    Post subject:

Oh, I figured it was going to be more strategic than anything. No big code changes and nothing deleted. . They already have the embedded journalist thing for cabals for quite a while so I thought nothing of it. I didn't get any impression we were going to delete/close/ruin the Mystic cabal. Its more like they both stuff like share a command to type "stream" lets them use the front page to broadcast rp. and shared channel can be gossip channel while keeping their own private channels
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Matrix



Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:28 pm    Post subject:

they already have the gossip channel why do they need combined cabal chat
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Vanisse
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: inside a tree

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:42 pm    Post subject:

Gossip is open to public. the cabal chat is for planning and discussing things.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:51 pm    Post subject:

Things can obviously improve in a lot of areas, I know I personally will be working on what I think most important, but other people can work on what they think is important.

How about instead of worrying about alienating of every ten year old veteran that returns to the game, we could try to invite Xerties out of retirement for a few weeks to just participate on the forum thread. He actually just popped his head in just a couple days ago. He is the guy who campaigned to get Mystics re-added to the game after a 5 year absence and basically directed the construction of what we have now. I dont think they will have a better living advocate -- especially since his peers actually were the ones who wanted to close the cabal since they were upset over Heralds having taken the duties. I'm pretty sure this is why we ended up moving the entire herald tavern from Timaran out into the boonies.
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Mikoos



Joined: 03 Nov 2012
Posts: 474

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:47 pm    Post subject:

I’m not seeing the streamlining.

How would they work closer together than they already are? Feels like their responsibilities are going to be more blurred, making things more complicated, confusing, and not streamlined.

Adding yet another way for players to communicate than what they already have is not streamlining. Personally I’d use notes (Something that is already in the game) if I were planning some super secret event. If someone forgets what was discussed they can just look at the note. If their current cabal chat and gossip chat is not enough... That’s a bigger problem. If someone is annoying them, they can form a group and use group chat? Adding solutions to other solutions is not streamlining. And the solutions currently in the game are easy?

Having an IMM over two groups? Streamlining.

Creating another group for two separate groups to have their own group is not. Creating a new name, lore, helpfiles, rules for the new group. Along with their responsibilities staying the same... How is that streamlining?
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Mikoos



Joined: 03 Nov 2012
Posts: 474

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:51 pm    Post subject:

Double post FTW, but yeah I have brought up my gripes about Mystic. Said there should be nicely written quests players can venture on to be initialize their religion. It’ll give them something to do, some currency, EXP, the process is automated and the results are clear and consistent. Much better than sitting and waiting for a mort and an IMM to figure things out. And they can do this while Mystic is still around pretending to be religious scholars.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:58 am    Post subject:

This response may sound a bit of a cliche, but this is a PK'ing mud first and foremost, and a little bit of deliberate social engineering goes on here.

Some of you guys responding are the elite PK'ing players we recruit for Legion. That's great that you finally made it all the way to "veterans", but as players I wouldn't expect you to think Mystics have a point (for you, they dont) and furthermore most of you are the kinda guys that should just multikill Mystics for cake pk's. You are implying Mystics should be the veterans of the game and best players. That is horseshit. That is exclusively the role of Legion. This cabal is mainly for newbies and perennial bad at PK'ing types, and the occasional smurf to pretend to be one and then surprise kill you guys.

And if if they get to do something that annoys the guys who normally play Legions, e.g. induct newbies who can't answer basic questions despite superb helpfiles, then its just perfect prey for the Legions to pad their pk records on, and cause other self-righteous douchebag to roll up Knights to do something about that. And if you dont plan on going to Winter for your eq with your Legion, I should suggest you help the Imm staff to get Mystics to do it so you have someone to pk.

I don't say this strictly to discredit anybody's opinions but obviously we need to distinguish the target audience from people who think it was a waste of time to even work on it.
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Ceridwel
Immortal


Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 3385
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:39 am    Post subject:

RE: religion quests, that has been on our radar for a few years actually. What is holding it back is it would be a TONNE of manual work for the Imms where we until now have agreed that our time can be better spent working on things y'all would get more out of. Combining Mystics and Heralds might actually allow for delegation of some of the quest-writing from the Imms to the players in that coterie. Until then, Mystics play an important role in religion ever since Taleroth (then leader of Mystics) helped invent religions some years ago. We hear your feedback that waiting for a Mystic to be around to initiate sucks, and we're fixing that. But religion isn't the only thing Mystics do, just like writing the Mystique isn't the only thing Heralds are supposed to be doing. Dav really hits the nail on the head with his PKer perspective above. Both coteries provide an avenue for enjoyment for the type of players who may not be attracted to (or skilled in) hard core PK but still want to do epic Winter runs and have fun.
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Mikoos



Joined: 03 Nov 2012
Posts: 474

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:48 pm    Post subject:

@Dav - ....Shit I’ve been found out. It’s true that I’ve had a Kill on sight (KoS) policy regarding Mystics and Heralds over the last few years, it’s not my fault! I’ve tried to help them in the past, but no matter how many times you lead a horse to a fountain of knowledge.. You can’t force it to drink and trust me, I’ve tried. I don’t really care if they are veterans or not, just being functional would be nice.

Glad you brought up winter. I’ve posted gripes about that place in the past. Thought it was just the grind of getting equipment that always bothered me, but that’s not true. It’s always because I’m grouped with Heralds, Mystics and god awful clerics. All of whom have bigger inflated egos than my own, which has always impressed me.

So yeah, guilty as charged.

@Ceridwel - Glad to hear things are going on behind the scenes.
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Kornhole



Joined: 15 Aug 2012
Posts: 370
Location: Melbourne, Florida

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:18 pm    Post subject:

I like the idea of combination, for efficiency, and out of character reasons. In character, I would find it quite odd that the Mystics (that tried to take over the world) just caved, to join the Heralds!?!?! Could be just my crazy character.
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 470
Location: Yes

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:38 pm    Post subject:

Mikoos, you're completely off topic with your rant. Quit ranting about the Heralds and Mystics just because you hated Beljia and Ona, will you? Focus on the actual subject matter at hand, you moron.

As for the whole idea, well keep in mind that the Mystics were at one point disbanded and they had apparently accepted paladins and bards into their ranks if the help file in Mystics is directly quoting what happened in the past... The Heralds literally accept anyone who is capable of writing the right kinds of works, and traditionally they have been the lore keepers and historians of AR (Thera/Serin). The Mystics have basically been the sages and scholars of AR, with a dedication to knowledge. Also, Kornhole, the new Mystics do not care as much about world domination, and in fact their purpose is peaceful.

Also, some of the stuff the Mystics do (writing/approving creature lore) could easily be a Herald's job, and before the Mystics were reborn, the Heralds did a lot of what the Mystics do today.

Finally, the whole dynamics of the two organizations are different too; Mystics, at least as of late, have tended to be loners, whereas the Heralds thrive when there is activity and numbers.

I am personally in favor of it.
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Kedaleam
Immortal


Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:09 am    Post subject:

Seems easiest to just make someone the "Coterie Imm" and call it good. They can micromanage from there. All they'd really be missing is the private chat. Could just remove gossip from the Tavern/Rest and solve that issue.

Side note derailment: I disagree about Heralds thriving with more members. Generally, a good Herald can succeed just fine without a ton of others. If anything, they make people want to join in on the fun. Mystics might have a neat power or two for a group, but the current Mystics keeping to themselves, I'll agree on.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:21 pm    Post subject:

We got ahold of Xerties (first ager Mystic and really the sole reason Mystic even exists anyway) and he indicated his full approval for this stuff
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Vanisse
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: inside a tree

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:43 pm    Post subject:

Thanks for all the input folks. We will be moving forward with this around next patch release.
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Dogran
Immortal


Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 1794

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:23 pm    Post subject:

Interesting, now will they keep all their existing abilities? Will there be factions within? What's this going to look like?
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Vanisse
Immortal


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: inside a tree

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:04 am    Post subject:

For now, they'll keep separate abilities and just have more unified direction. We'll see where it goes.
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