Revise incentive to full loot for cabal currency / relics

[Thorgoth]

It feels like full looting has become more of a requirement then something you did to some asshole who pissed you off. Based on what I can tell, this is primarily in order to buy equipment / items that require cabal currency or relics. I’ve been curious as to what everyone in the game thinks about this.

Are the needs for such currency to few and far between that we resort to mass looting and sacrificing our foes equipment or have we just gotten that cold blooded as a player base? Or is this just specifics to certain cabals / players? Also, how do the poor newbs who are just trying to play with the big dogs suffer from this? Are we punishing them to much just for our own greed? I know I have.

The word is out, let’s hear yours!

[Ergorion]

I have 100% thought that there have been too many incentives to full loot for a while now. Basically ever since you got mystic relics for sacrificing rare gear from a kill.

Full looting is part of the game, but I do not think it should be the default. The old system for looting incentivized limited looting but because there was no store of value component, you really didn't need to full loot someone unless they were an absolute prick or like a jeo-level badass that you wanted to hamstring a little (or you were in mal beast and did the classic remove all; drop all; get all corpse). If you were decently geared, then you might take a couple items and put them on the auction block, but the cap on rares in your inventory meant that you could not just take everything and hang on to it.

I don't know if the system has evolved since I last got a juicy kill (that was when you just got mystic relics for rares), but it seems like if you allow players to convert those rares into currency that they can store and stockpile to get badass items at a later point in time, then you should always full loot.

Why is default full looting bad for the game?

(1) it puts people off, especially the newer folks who spent lots of hours rp'ing a winter party and doing the hard work to get those items. The vets benefit in that they can wipe the floor with some of the lesser skilled folks regardless of gear, but if you're learning and put in a ton of time to get that stuff, a full loot is going to feel really shitty.

(2) it most likely reduces the overall amount of pk in the game. If I have a close fight with someone and get full looted, I'm quitting out or maybe nerd rage suiciding on them to fuck their pk stats. If I have a close fight with someone and my gear is there when I get back to my corpse, I rest up and try again in earnest.

Ultimately, I think full looting should be far less incentivized than it is. If the issue is that cabal players need ways to generate currency then the solution should be to think of other creative ways for them to generate currency.

[Davairus]

Weak. People have pretty much always full looted on AR. There's nothing more satisfying than a full loot. Don't be weak.

[Ergorion]

I distinctly remember times when I would consistently come back to my corpses with most of my equipment left in there. These days if you find anything in your corpse you're lucky.

If your policy is that every player should full loot all the time and that's the way you want the game, then I disagree with that policy. If you get satisfaction from full looting everything that moves all the time, then that's fucked up. There's nothing more devastating to a noob then getting hosed and full looted. If you want the fucked up vets who get satisfaction from that scenario to have their cake, I think that's incredibly misguided from a game growth/preservation standpoint.

There are three scenarios where I do agree that a full loot is incredibly satisfying: (1) you take somebody's titanium tenor after killing them while wearing malicious beast; (2) you full loot that whiny little level 41 drow dk that justed ranked up into your range; (3) you kill pip or jeo.

It's easy to tell a vet "don't be weak." I know my pk chops are nowhere up to par, but I also know I can run away from anyone and don't have to die if I don't want to. But for newer players that is not an option. They're going to get hosed. I mean, if you're consigning this game to death and saying we're not going to get any new players; or if you don't care about bringing old and rusty players back into the fold, then sure "don't be weak" can be a valid basis for a policy that completely fucks over anyone who is not good at pk. But if you actually want to make some semblance of effort at increasing the playerbase, then you've got to take policy stances that encourage people to play.

I do not pk to full loot someone and sacrifice all their equipment. I pk someone for the thrill of it, or for a discrete number of shiny rares that I can use, or to spite them because they're a dick. I log into the game when I've got a decent suit of armor. I choose not to log in after I get full looted for absolutely no reason. There's a huge difference between returning to a corpse with a salvageable amount of eq and returning to a naked corpse and full re-gear.

[Davairus]

Nobody is forcing anybody to full loot. We encourage PK. How do you think that is being encouraged? Via coveted rare items? And what makes them so special? Competing with people for them?

You guys are literally getting unloaded of full suits of rare items. Greed is your issue. Not looting. Hello Kitty Island adventure is waiting if you can't stomach competition. This isn't a game of just who logs on first after monthly rare purge reboot. So you lost some rares. Pull your pants up. Theres guild outfits, treant threws, stockpiling a bunch of gold to gamble, and all kinds of shit the "vets" used to deal without. A few relics doesnt really mean shit except an alternative to get you people to sac it instead of selling it to newbies on the auction house for like 1000 gold per winter item. The point is, rares circulate. They need to, or the game feels stagnant. I do care about people playing. But this is just fucking salt about losing rares thread. Characters need to die for rares to circulate for the game to feel fresh and promising to explore.

If you dont like full loot, dont fucking full loot.. you can influence the game culture by example. If you werent selling it for 1k gold on the auction house to low level pkers I wouldnt have made it saccable for relics for a slightly better return. It was that behavior that set what a relic is worth. Literally. That. You think I am going to buy that nonsense about newbies getting hosed after watching everybody get rared off the AH at level 20 and kiling indiscriminatly there way overgeared? No. This is human greed and not having respect

[Mikoos]

The infantilization of newbs.

I dunno, I’ve seen other games try to fix similar “issues”, but it never works. It’s like you’re trying to change time it’s self. Player A is always going to be better than Player B if they put more time in and play more conscientiously.

You’re a fool before you’re a master, etc. etc.

I think Mr. T. Is going about it in the right way by trying to change the culture.

[Ergorion]

The pk is a natural part of this game. I think most of us come here for the pk and that does not need much of an incentive on top of the natural inclination to play the game.

I am saying that the policies currently in place put a chilling effect on pk. My contention is that because there is such a strong incentive to full loot and because full looting is the default when you get a successful kill, the result of that is that there is lower pk overall. I am saying that the incentive structure actually DISCOURAGES pk on the whole.

[Davairus]

You've always been able to sacrifice rares for gold. That was in place from day 1 on AR. And this game is over 20 years of age. You guys weren't satisfied with the 10 gold, so you sold it to low level niche pk'ers for more gold. This has been going on AR since the first age. I think you are just trying to bullshit people into not full looting YOU by trying to have people imagine guilt about killing newbies. Newbies are strong and do not care. They get up and re-equip. They don't care you full looted them. They dont even know what things are useful for. They are expecting to lose every fight and lose the eq. Show me any person whining about his full loot and I guarantee you that it is a vet and I am very confident I will be able to prove it. I have logs that go back over 5 years.

I feel I made my position on this clear. Let me know if there is anything else I can help you with.

[Ergorion]

I think we just fundamentally disagree about the effect that full looting has on the game and you don't seem like you're going to change your mind.

If the goal of the looting system is to encourage pk, then we have an empirical question on our hands that would be pretty easy to test out. Switch back to the system where you only get gold when sacrificing rares for three months. Check the pk stat bodycount to see how much action there is. Probably would have to wait until the corona virus dies down a little bit because I bet with people chilling at home the game will be a bit more active anyway.

If you have any interest in actually testing the theoretical assumptions that we're making about the effect looting has, then test it out and see what works.

[Mikoos]

Since duels have returned they probably have a bigger affect on the PK body count than currency or full looting.

[Davairus]

Its not just my opinion, I've listened to everybody. We have this "boohoo full looting" thing many times now. It is no trivial matter to get features literally deleted from AR. You know, right now we are internally discussing an update to the whispering battle axe, even though the item has been rendered useless by a crap change. Does it occur to you that somebody thought it was an amazing idea at the time? Like, what you really want is a way to hug the corpse so nobody can loot it

[Ergorion]

Nope. I laid out my scenarios where I think full looting is appropriate and should be encouraged. I just don't think the ideal amount of full looting is "all the time." The way the incentives are structured now the balance tilts so far towards "full loot all the time" that I think it's a bad structure.

[Davairus]

Basically, as soon as somebody kills you, your shit is no longer your shit anymore. You need to hurry back to your corpse and try to yoink it back. Expect nothing. When I played, I pk'ed an awful lot, and I don't remember ever being thanked for leaving people any shit, or telling them I wasn't going to do that so don't bother walking. There was never gratitude for these acts of mercy. You guys don't positively reinforce that with like props on the forum. This is why I say this is a culture thing. Respect is a currency that you need to give to receive. Leaving someone who has been disrespecting you totally naked and imagining them walking around AR totally naked is funny and satisfying enough to require no further incentive. It will happen even if the person looted was taking smites for saccing each item.

[Ergorion]

The culture aspect is definitely an issue, but the problem with that is full looting has been engrained in the culture via the incentive structures surrounding it such that full looting is now the norm. I'm glad Thorgoth started this thread and so far it's just been you and me (and Mikoos, hi Mikoos) going back and forth. It would be nice to get some other perspectives on this.

I am going to call bullshit on your smiting claim. If people got smited for every item they sacrificed, looting would stop right quick.

[Dogran]

I didn't usually bother to full loot people. The only time I do that is when I have an rp reason to fully loot someone or they are being super annoying. Now though, I have to. If I am playing a cabal character, I need cabal supplies. The only way to get cabal supplies is to sacrifice your rares. I understand what Ergorian and Thorgoth are talking about. If I have enough currency, I choose not to full loot still, but a lot of the time I have to loot when normally I wouldn't so I can buy defenders and stuff. I don't know what the fix is, or if there is one, the only thing I can see if alternatives to earn cabal currencies. As it is, say I am playing a neutral warlord? I am not killing the people I am dueling, and so I am having a terrible time collecting currency because looting enemies is the only way to get it. This reason has played a huge part in the race/class combos I have chosen to play lately because self-sufficient classes give me the ability to choose to do what I want in this situation.

[Kornhole]

I have been on the losing and winning side of not looting. I have been raped by someone with a full set of badass rares, and had many myself, and the raper sent me a tell that I should hurry to my corpse because there was a possible vulture in the area (before anti-vulch change). That was a long time ago. Every time I have died in the last year and a half or so, on a 50 with any rares, they have all been gone every time I get to my corpse. Many of those times, the sacc'er was in WAY better rared, and only did it for currencies. I kind of agree that the "need" to sac rares is an excuse people cling to, even when they dont want/need your gear or want/need you to "lose power" by removing your things. I roll too many toons to keep rares anyway, so I get shit sets, so idgaf usually, but it is disheartening to "finally" suit up, and have someone full loot just because they want defenders. Just my two cents. Also, leaving people their things is a badass move, that most people give mad props for, whether they realize it or not. Someone kills you and leaves you all your things, because they know they can beat you with them, is awesome.

[tayyah]

I more often than not, leave most of the things. If I do, i'll probably just take a single rare just to get a cpl currencies. I will full loot my equals because fuck you, you do it to me. But I know instantly if I am fighting a vet or not. I never loot someone I flatten. Ever, I don't see the point. It's disheartening to get your ass kicked and than hurry back to just be naked. That sucks for anyone. The system works fine though, I don't care if I get full looted I expect it. (I get full looted about 97% of my deaths to players, no one every leaves me shit... but why would they?) The asshole that full loots a noob is going to full loot the noob regardless of the incentive. You would just be breaking a functioning system and punishing those of us who don't abuse this.

[Davairus]

Well we have discussed currencies recently among imms because we noticed all the cabals have large stockpiles of cabal bank gold. Its like you guys forgot that existed.

Currently there is a guild point and cabal currency reward from being logged on for 30 mins. You don't have to do anything to get that amount. We can generate currencies from tainted sacrifice, apprehend, Knight purify, fatality, base its reward off the rating changes. I think the only cabal that needs it from saccing rares is Keeper. I also think that talk about needing cabal supplies is bullshit. So I don't see how changing this would solve your "problem". It will introduce instead a new problem of finding cabal supplies harder to come by. Also, the main reason why I would sac a load of rares is because I can type "get all corpse" and watch it just fly onto the ground like a pinata. Another thought is people roll giants on purpose to be able to full loot, so if I kill a giant I'm definitely full looting that mofo

[Kornhole]

So you are saying you can get cabal supplies with cabal gold? If you can get cabal supplies with gold, why is EVERYONE full looting? <--boggled. Too long playing here to be this noobish. I thought you could not purchase cabal supplies with gold.

[Davairus]

No I didn't say that, I said there are some free ways to get it though. Like capping the enemy cabal item gives you points. The amount of point is literally tied to the cost of a defender potion. And also I just checked and knight purify also already gives cabal currency, so I expect the other ways already do too.

I said it before and I'll say it again. This is just greed and not giving people respect. If it wasnt done for currency it would be sold to low levels where the gear gets used to roll newbies. This was a surgical strike on that problem. Somehow a behavior "problem" bubbled up all the way to level 50? Great. Please self-moderate it.