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Ranger Specializations Discussion
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Dogran
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Joined: 13 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:53 pm    Post subject: Ranger Specializations Discussion

So, I have been thinking about this for a while now, but the posts in the Warlord log made me decide to go ahead and flesh it out a little bit. I was thinking about three possible specializations for rangers so below I will post my ideas, what I think they would gain/lose as a start and we can go from there if anyone else wants to add to or continue the discussion. (Disclaimer I have more ideas than this, but now that I decided to post this I have to remember the rest of them)

Beastmaster (Pet spec)
Like what a ranger is right now, but maybe add some more pet buffs and take away some of their other skills to balance. (I have spent the least amount of thought on this one, so I will come back and add ideas to this as I think of them.)

Archer (Bow kings)
Take away pets completely they are archers.
Give AOE bow skills,
Give Bow skills they can use in combat.
Hand Crossbows specialized only for archery specs. Allows for dual-wielded hand crossbows, or crossbow and shield for combat matchups.
Introduce Hand crossbows to the game as an archer only (Or maybe just a new weapon class)
Adjust everything to be bow based, no reason for an archer to use anything but a bow/crossbow.

Trapper
A little bit of everything, no pets’
Ability to hide traps and ambush people.
Many kinds of traps or hunting tools
(Will add to this as I think of more and more people come up with ideas.)
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:13 pm    Post subject:

Archer's just get wrecked by someone using a shield probably. Even if they dual wield crossbows, which is just kind of a silly image in my head, then what happens? They don't get dodged as much? They're arrows to begin with. Shield block all of them. ez

Also do beastmaster and archer lose camo?
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BlackWidow



Joined: 24 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:37 pm    Post subject:

dual wielding crossbows? LOL... How do you even reload them after one shot with your hands tied up? Not to inject too much reality or anything, but trying to use two crossbows simply doesn't work the same way as an ambidextrous individual wielding two revolvers or semi-automatic pistols...
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Ergorion



Joined: 16 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:33 pm    Post subject:

Dual crossbows, you fire one bolt per round with a chance to land some >>>ERADICATES<<< damage but only one shot per round. Once you're out, you need to reload manually which takes three rounds of concentrated activity.
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Bladefury

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:40 pm    Post subject:

What if instead it was like leading shot. You lead with 2 crossbow bolts like a dual backstab kinda thing. Reduce damage to leading shit and the second shot obviously isn't going to do as much as the first
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Dogran
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:03 pm    Post subject:

I pictured gnomish inventions with the mini crossbows, shooting darts rather than arrows, or small bolts. Special ammo would be required, and I picture belt fed or cartridge fed somehow. Anyway just ideas, the more I think about it the more I think about archer's being more a regular bow wielder with really cool bow skills, but they would need something to offset shields and protective shield.
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Bladefury

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:34 pm    Post subject:

What about overdraw its breaks protective shield and temporarily makes your shield arm stunned that might be op
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Vhrael
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:14 am    Post subject:

Belt fed crossbows or semi-auto fire for dual wield isn’t gonna happen. From there it’s just a hop skip and jump to pistols and rifles, and those have no place in the game. “Wouldn’t it be cool” vs. “does the idea fit” have to be weighed equally. Plus for dual crossbows you’re talking very small crossbows, and you couldn’t really parry/dual parry (any weapon strikes the crossbow and it’s gonna be either ruined or bolts dislodged.
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Dogran
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:13 am    Post subject:

Makes sense Vhrael, just throwing ideas out there. They are there to be poked full of holes, but if anyone else is interested in the idea suggestions help too instead of everyone just saying why my idea won't work they could add something as well?
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Vhrael
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:01 pm    Post subject:

Oh absolutely. I apologize if it came across as me just taking a big dump on your idea vs. offering constructive feedback; I just wanted to point out why I didn’t think it would work as presented. If you or anyone else wants to go back to the drawing board and work around the limitations, by all means do so.
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Dogran
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:20 pm    Post subject:

Oh, that second part wasn't directed directly at you, I am simply saying. Someone complained about rangers being op, which is garbage but whatever. We seem to be reworking lots of things, and rangers could some love. Help out with ideas people!
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BlackWidow



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:22 pm    Post subject:

Regarding archers... I suppose this is taking an idea from another MUD, but the potential to shoot at an opponent a room away comes to mind. This might be improved with a skill which increases accuracy...

One caveat, however. In the other setting, shooting an arrow at somebody would cause them (assuming it did not kill them) to rush at the archer, moving from their room to the archer's. I suspect that unless we disallow this on cabal guardians and other stationary opponents by giving them protective shield or something similar this could be abused if implemented (perhaps if there is a guardian trait or whatever which makes it stay in the same place (I forget the exact mob flags) it is automatically immune to this).

Regarding the beastmaster... Perhaps make them the only ones with tame (and possibly beast call, though this severely limits werebeasts).

Regarding trappers... I could totally see somebody digging pits to trip an unwary traveler, or setting deadfalls in mountainous areas, or placing bear traps which severely cripple movement for a period of time if not preventing it outright, etc.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:14 pm    Post subject:

I'm just wondering if we could do it all the same but make it appear a bit more original, like maybe each beastmaster could pick a favorite beast and spec more off that. So if you pick falcons you've got sight bonuses and long distance scouting stuff. If you pick wolves you get detect hidden (via scent, so they just attack for you, but without you needing the full detect) and you get blood hounds. etc. If you pick boars you get some other shit idk. Maybe every beastmaster learns to frenzy pets for extra damage. If you dont pick a beastmaster you dont have to think about those choices. Repeat with each spec. Obviously the third spec is survival-focused man vs wild
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Dogran
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:06 pm    Post subject:

That sounds awesome, any kind of new flavor for rangers would be great. At some point I know it will take a long time, but it would be cool to see specs for every class.
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Kornhole



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:33 pm    Post subject:

I apologize in advance. This is likely not the place for this. I should think of some cool ranger ideas to add so I'm not a total dick. But, I have been sitting on this too long. I am personally greatly opposed to messing with classes, by way of forcing specializations. I think if each class was specialized, I would be greatly disheartened, I feel there are too many already. Small stuff like ninja weapons by sex, or some spells by race with (perhaps only??!!) one class (druids), was fine, and cool. I think people have put in great effort and thought and time into development of specs, and it is all appreciated, of course.....however, I think that many times we get carried away in how cool the new is. I say this with the idea of nostalgia in mind......there has recently been a push for nostalgia, and I must point out that large changes like splitting a class in three, and then making certain things dependant on choices (past "which class will you be?") take away from the original class. Just my two cents, and I have made mention of this before, how much I am opposed to changing the whole class system, but here seemed like another chance to voice this opinion, and now felt like the time, before we had speccd the diku away from all of the classes.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:52 pm    Post subject:

Kornhole I know what point you are trying to make, but let me just tell you that speccing classes really comes from a push and tug of ideologies.

Lets say a player (it could be an Imm, that's always more interesting) returns from some absence, wants to make some changes to DK casting because he loves DKs but he feels this class needs an update that just removes vamp touch that wasn't there when he left. He pitches it with some anger about things seem ruined and someone chides him with, "OK boomer, I want vamp touch because I'm preferring this necromancy appeal and potential for becoming a vampire later on, you're old and the way you see things is out-dated and stupid". That's two people now at each others throats over a class they both LIKE but both see the other person as completely mistaken. One person will inevitabily leave the game, and if Imms are involved there is likely code changes.

A better alternative.

Given that we know Dark-knights typically serve a powerful master, it becomes easy to just have devil worshippers and demon worshippers, both pretty satanic, both people get what they want, and nobody is really complaining except the old-timer who comes back like boohoo things changed for me, someone just needs to tell him stfu and pick demons to be the "traditional" DK of yore

The process I described above happened multiple times to paladins without a decent compromise, and I think we can all see the end result is not as good as if we had just created options.
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Kornhole



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:48 pm    Post subject:

I may have misunderstood. I think that was an attempt at explanation of a certain scenario....one in which a returning player possibly doesn't return because his favorite class got (in their opinion) Fuxed. I read between the lines that you think change to a class is not a problem, and will proceed to make each class as varied as you can. This is a problem for me, but only in so far as to say "hey this sux" and still play anyway because AR is fucking awesome. I am not opposed to classes changing slightly, but being varied from their original classes in certain cases, I think sucks....whatever, I am one guy.
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Dogran
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:01 pm    Post subject:

My take in this is some of us have been here for 10, 15, or even 20+ years. With that said, can you honestly say you have played every class and taken one to 50? I can. Variety is nice because every time I sit and look at making a new character I am stumped. What sounds fun now, I did that recently, or I didn't like that class because. More options are better.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:10 pm    Post subject:

I want to chime in and add that I think I kind of agree with kornhole a little. I'm not sure I fully understand his opinion, in fact I don't know that I fully understand my own opinion, but I do have to admit that I have felt a certain trepidation towards all the talk of spec'ing classes. Not because of the nostalgia towards the original class, but more I think it is being intimidated by the changes maybe.

Going on from there though, I recognize that being intimidated by future changes is a pretty shit reason to avoid them. I also recognize and appreciate that with the imms around here, especially Dav and Olyn, put in a boat load of thought that goes into this stuff and I think they make a pretty heroic effort to make sure that the changes work in the end and things come out balanced and fair and fun. And if they don't then they tweak them until they do.

I let me trust override my fear, I guess.

Maybe what I've expressed here doesn't coincide any at all with what you were trying to say kornhole but I'll add it as my two cents in case it does resonate with you or anyone.
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Davairus
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:28 am    Post subject:

Its fine to be conservative. Just let me know where you think the speccing was too much. I can't see any examples where a class got simply split into 3. Berserker dragon ancestry was an invitation to trade in old skills for new ones.. monks got to choose 1-2 skills and then either upgrade them or choose another.. I can't think of anything where a class got super split. we would just make a new class
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