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Trick or Tweak (adjustments for Strythowe'en)
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lionSpyre



Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:21 am    Post subject: Minor Monk Tweak?

Would be great to see a minor buff to monk two-handed stances. Right now the only combat-worthy stances seem to be crane and leopard. A couple others are situational (drunken, dragon), but the two-handed stances seem downright useless. This makes me feel like monks are missing out on the fun of the 'rock-paper-scissors' style combat. I would love to see snake's chance to bypass a dodge increased, and likewise mantis's chance to bypass a parry increased -- something along these lines that gives these two stances a buff. Otherwise, i think everything else done with monks this last patch was great. I think buffing those stances would bring them into a really nice place of balance.
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Ozaru



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:11 am    Post subject:

What you need to consider before asking for a class buff is your competition. With the previous monks I had, the only people I really could not beat was Thoom and other monks. Shamans, invokvers, illusionists weren't really a problem. So Thoom has some of the best equipment in the game, a good tracker in the ford arena and a stone giant which is even greater resistance to monks.

If you were losing duels to a different race warrior consistently with inferior eq, then maybe something would be needed. Provided you are playing the stances correctly of course. I learned this the hard way with Mokoto. When you start winning a couple duels in a row, you think you figured it out. Then someone comes on and beats you and you are like I am just as good as this guy why is he kicking my ass so hard. Some match-ups are just bad. I beat thoom with his titanium tenor with a drow ninja in shadow wraith. It was a favorable match up for me and I was able to capitalize on a decent fight with some mistakes he made.

Personally it doesn't seem like this game was designed that every class has an equal chance of beating each class. Skill, equipment and strategy can turn a fight.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:49 am    Post subject:

I think one of the hardest things for me to swallow sometimes is what Ozaru said at the end there: some classes are not designed to beat other classes.

I want every match up to be fair. But realistically that just can't happen. Sometimes you're gonna have an uphill battle. Having acknowledged that I still wanna add my two cents to lionSpyre's comment about two-hand monk styles.

I think that the reason leopard and crane are the only really useful pk styles is because they both have defensive buffs. Monks, for the most part, have somewhat low hp and they definitely have low damage (albeit consistent with the 3 attacks a round). This makes monks have to play as a kind of physical attrition class. They don't do flashy damage, but they can wear you done and out heal you. But if you nuke a monk they're screwed.
In my opinion this is what is wrong with the two handed styles. They make you very weak defensively, therefore you take a lot of damage. Theoretically a two hand style would beat a dual wielding warrior. But the truth of the matter seems to be that a dual wielding warrior just does a boat load of damage to the monk and he immediately has to run away and heal. It ruins his slow and steady combat style.

Because of this, I feel like an offensive boost to the styles, like lionSpyre suggested, might not actually help. I think they need a defensive boost. It doesn't have to be as good as leopard, but enough that they can stay in the style for more than two rounds without getting totally wrecked.


That's just my two cents.
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lionSpyre



Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:01 pm    Post subject:

I can get what has been said here.. in reference to Ham's comment, a defensive buff for those two-handed stances. Technically panda gives a defensive buff, but very few people are using physical weapons against monks, making panda only useful against mobs.

In reference to Oz's comment, I understand that one class is not meant to have a fair chance against every class. And I think that can easily be shown with monks. Especially when a number of races have resistance to physical. My main argument for buffing the two-handed stances is to bring monks into the fold of the 'rock-paper-scissors' combat system. Right now, in PvP, they really only get to play 'paper-scissors'. That feels more stagnant. If they're going to be penalized for being in inferior combat (decreased parry chance) and rewarded for being in superior combat (increased form proc), then all three combat styles should be viable for them.
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lionSpyre



Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:02 pm    Post subject:

I've been thinking about and got a cool suggestion from a friend. What if, instead of buffing or changing the two-handed stances, monks get a form of concentrate that ups their defenses instead of their damage? Leopard would likely have to be nerfed if something like this was introduced, but it may be a nice way to make all forms viable for them.
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Bladefury

BANNED

Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 520

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:42 pm    Post subject:

Thats a good idea. Instead of nerf leopard just make the creature bypass the extra defence like you did eradication paladins fencing some creatures.
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Rothak



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 256
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:25 pm    Post subject:

One thing I would suggest is more orderly light/medium armors. Looking at the codex and seeing a heck of a lot more wild armor compared to orderly is baffling to me. There's quite a bit of heavy orderly, but that wouldn't work for everyone, especially monks as they cannot be chaotic at all. Just my 2 cents.
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Dogran
Immortal


Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 1794

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:06 pm    Post subject:

Keep in mind that there are lots of gambled options now too. I rarely had gear trouble on my monks.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:21 pm    Post subject:

there are fewer gambled light gears than otherwise. Some noticeable things that are missing are boots and gloves. Unless they've been added recently.
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 691

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:40 pm    Post subject:

Rothak, I’ve posted the big difference in the amount of order compared to wild items. I was given a bunch of reasons for the difference.
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Rothak



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 256
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:04 am    Post subject:

I thought it was that orderly items were more AC oriented, and wild items were more damage oriented? Only makes sense to me to have a few more orderly items than wild in regards to armor and more wild weapons than orderly in regards to damage.
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Stiehl26



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 691

PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:42 pm    Post subject:

I’d like to see rating take into account level, where there was either a percentage bonus for being 50 or a percentage decrease to being non 50. Niche pkers at a particular power spike aren’t really “the best”.
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Dogran
Immortal


Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 1794

PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:31 am    Post subject:

I agree with this one.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:46 am    Post subject:

Here's a thought that I distilled after levelling up a few characters a couple months ago. I considered grinding easy mobs on double exp, instead of going after level appropriate stuff, to feel like somewhat of an exploit.. I didnt see the point going to Shaldun when you can simply grind kaddar faeries the rest of the way and they are on farm mode by level 45. It was a breeze and that was nice in the moment but also very repetitive, and ultimately made level 50 feel less of an achievement. I wouldn't go so far as to say it felt like cheating but it did feel like a mindless grind. An answer could be increase the exp penalty for mobs that are lower level during surges, so that your character exp is doubled in the challenging, risky content, and could be halved (meaning normal xp) if you were just pushing stuff over barely awake at the keyboard.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:08 am    Post subject:

I got around to looking at the monk two-handed styles feedback and I must say I like the idea of them getting a little parry bonus across the board for two-handed style. It makes sense because two-handed weapons have nice parry too. Before I sign off completely on that I want to see how they are looking on style affects as I know crane/tiger are both in great spots for dual wield right now (and with huge hit/dam buffs). We said long ago we would figure out affects for these styles and never did it.
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hamsandwich



Joined: 08 Jan 2019
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:18 am    Post subject:

Are you asking what hit/dam they give Dav? As far as I am aware crane and tiger are the only ones that are different. All the other base styles (not dragon and phoenix) leopard included, just give 2 hit and 2 dam.

I think a parry increase to two handed styles will make them more viable for sure. They definitely feel like a death sentence as is. In pk it's just leopard and crane, otherwise you just die too fast. With tiger you at least do more damage while dying. The other styles you just do little damage and die faster lol.
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Davairus
Implementor


Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 10344
Location: 0x0000

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:29 am    Post subject:

Well I just meant it is hard to see why I would go 2h for tankiness knowing I can get 120 ac from drunken with probably better damage and all the staggering out of things. Maybe some of these styles could get elemental resistances to fill in for iron body. I assume I am not the first person who has thought about it. When I wrote "affects" I meant like monkey haste, not just the 25 hitroll stuff. I dont wanna be in a position of everybody just goes snake for pimp tanking if theres stuff like anatomies drop str/dex easily (ruby hilted dagger effect) then they just go back to blasting . Its been too long and I want to review.
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